TPA Topics #1: How Would You Have Kicked Things Off?

[CC13]

For all the stumbles FarSight have made during TPA's tenure, their starter pack lineup has held up surprisingly well. However, I must have been the cat curiosity killed in a past life, as I can never leave these matters well enough alone, so what would you all have done differently for TPA's launch lineup? Here's my take:

1) Why did FarSight go with RBION for its Stern rep? That seems a bit too complicated for a starter table to me. Personally, I would have gone with either High Roller Casino or Monopoly, though Sharkey's Shootout could have proven an interesting dark horse pick.

2) If Black Hole couldn't be emulated, then an EM would have been the way to go. For my money, Big Shot would have been my pick, but there's certainly no shortage of quality '70s EMs from Gottlieb from which to choose.

3) On the Bally/Williams side of things, I would most likely have stuck with ToTAN, but ToM always left me a bit cold. Not only is it a second Popadiuk, but IMO, it's the weaker of the two. Given my druthers, this slot probably would have gone to either Indianapolis 500 or W?D, but I'm open to suggestions for other picks.

Well, I've about said my piece–how, if at all, would you guys have changed TPA's Core Pack?

 

[Jeff Strong]

1.) The guys at Farsight seem to be pretty big Pat Lawlor fans, and RBION is generally rated higher than the others you mentioned. Plus it has a deeper ruleset and is often regarded as a poor man's TZ. At that time, they probably never dreamed that The Twilight Zone would make it into TPA (they didn't even consider Kickstarters until fans kept suggesting they go that route), so they probably figured RBION was a good alternative. Also, apparently it was a relatively cheap license, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to obtain it at that point.

2.) Black Hole was a solid choice, even without emulation. Plus they already had the scripting in place from the PHOF release, so it meant they could focus more on the other pins and release TPA that much sooner.

3.) Theatre of Magic is a Top 10 pin, as is TOTAN. Can't say the same for the others you mentioned. They needed a couple big dogs out of the gate, and TOM and TOTAN fit the bill nicely.

Now as far as changing it up, perhaps subbing Medieval Madness for TOTAN, just to add more variety and an even bigger dog.

 

[wolfson]

they have done a great job !!! low and behold last time I counted I think we have 44 tables,not bad for 18 months.i don`t complain what tables we get.we have a bloody great variety of tables.i`ll take any tables TPA throughs my way.

 

[Patty]

44 tables? Not for the PS4. Only 24. Hope, that March will change that a little bit. Can´t wait to play new tables.

 

[Espy]

44 tables? Not for the PS4. Only 24. Hope, that March will change that a little bit. Can´t wait to play new tables.

Don't bait the 360 users...

 

[Bowflex]

Knowing now about the operation they are doing, I would have had them offering the game with Tales of the Arabian Nights for free and all additional games be offered as single tables. I think they should have started with 4 more tables at launch and then a new table every 3-4 weeks. By that math, we would have just about the same amount of tables we have at this point. For pricing I would have never said anything was free, charge 3-4 dollars for the remakes, 4-5 dollars for new tables and 5-7 dollars for the licensed tables. That model would actually have made them so much more money overall, have a more steady stream of releases. Discounted packs could be then offered by alternate themes. Since I don't know sales figures, let's just say that gottlieb tables don't sell as well or EM tables did not net the sales they hoped for. Bundle 5 tables together, lop 30-40% off and then get the sales of those poor performers up!

For all the criticism, and I have been vocal about their business practices when they have reacted with outright lies and contradictions in their statements, I think that they did as good of a job as could be hoped for with no experience as a developer and releasing a game that was anyone's guess as to how it would sell.

 

[superballs]

You know they developed a game for the snes right. They've been around for a while.

 

[Bowflex]

You know they developed a game for the snes right. They've been around for a while.

Oops, I mean as publisher, not developer.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Bowflex makes a good point about not really knowing how this would sell. The PHOF Williams Collection didn't do very well at all.

 

[superballs]

I didn't even know hof games existed until I was waiting for xbox's release

 

[CC13]

1.) The guys at Farsight seem to be pretty big Pat Lawlor fans, and RBION is generally rated higher than the others you mentioned. Plus it has a deeper ruleset and is often regarded as a poor man's TZ. At that time, they probably never dreamed that The Twilight Zone would make it into TPA (they didn't even consider Kickstarters until fans kept suggesting they go that route), so they probably figured RBION was a good alternative. Also, apparently it was a relatively cheap license, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to obtain it at that point.

2.) Black Hole was a solid choice, even without emulation. Plus they already had the scripting in place from the PHOF release, so it meant they could focus more on the other pins and release TPA that much sooner.

3.) Theatre of Magic is a Top 10 pin, as is TOTAN. Can't say the same for the others you mentioned. They needed a couple big dogs out of the gate, and TOM and TOTAN fit the bill nicely.

Now as far as changing it up, perhaps subbing Medieval Madness for TOTAN, just to add more variety and an even bigger dog.

1) That's all fine and well, but here's the issue: RBION was, IMO, way too complicated to be a starter table for TPA. I wouldn't have wanted TZ in the Core Pack, either, which is why I suggested the more straightforward Sterns that I did. As for table ratings, I place no faith in them whatsoever—far too many raters just hate on any table they see a big fish hating on and the latest Stern is unfailingly ranked way too high.

2) I suppose that's true, but given how much of a lightning rod scriptulation has been over the past several months, I still assert that holding out for emulation would have been FarSight's best bet.

3) TOM really doesn't deserve to be a top 10 pin, sorry to say, and I also have my doubts about TOTAN's top 10 credentials due to its two massive scoring exploits. For starters, TOM is a one-shot table if you're pursuing score–just keep shooting the left orbit and good things will generally happen. Also, if you're pursuing the Grand Finale, there's far too much woodchopping with the magic trunk. On top of that, Grand Finale is arguably the least engaging wizard mode in any table ever released. My take on it is that TOM gets a pass because of the greatness of WCS94, TOTAN and CV and wouldn't be ranked nearly so high if it had come from another designer.

Knowing now about the operation they are doing, I would have had them offering the game with Tales of the Arabian Nights for free and all additional games be offered as single tables. I think they should have started with 4 more tables at launch and then a new table every 3-4 weeks. By that math, we would have just about the same amount of tables we have at this point. For pricing I would have never said anything was free, charge 3-4 dollars for the remakes, 4-5 dollars for new tables and 5-7 dollars for the licensed tables. That model would actually have made them so much more money overall, have a more steady stream of releases. Discounted packs could be then offered by alternate themes. Since I don't know sales figures, let's just say that gottlieb tables don't sell as well or EM tables did not net the sales they hoped for. Bundle 5 tables together, lop 30-40% off and then get the sales of those poor performers up!

For all the criticism, and I have been vocal about their business practices when they have reacted with outright lies and contradictions in their statements, I think that they did as good of a job as could be hoped for with no experience as a developer and releasing a game that was anyone's guess as to how it would sell.

I love this post! You have some really great ideas, Bowflex–I really hope that FarSight take you up on some of these. I also feel that FarSight have done well to have TPA be the success it has, but I can also envision a lot of the hang-ups that have plagued it being very simple, straightforward and uncomplicated in different hands. Now, though, I suppose that it is what it is, so take it or leave it...

 

[Jeff Strong]

I'm glad they put in a pin with a deeper or "complicated" ruleset. Keep in mind they were marketing to established pinball fans too, almost moreso than new players at that point. Personally I prefer the straightforward pins too, but a complex pin such as RBION appealed to a certain crowd, and also to a lot of new players as well.

You may not place any faith in ratings, but Farsight does because the top rated machines are those that are the most popular and respected among pinheads, and therefore they're going to bring in better sales.

In regards to TOM and TOTAN not being top 10 pins, everyone has their own opinion, but you're definitely in the minority on that one. TOM "gets a pass" because of JPop's other pins? Funny because TOM is generally the most well-regarded among pinheads and rated higher than any of JPop's other machines, as it should be because it was his masterpiece. When TPA was first announced, TOM was definitely the first big reveal from Farsight, and at the time the fans were over the moon to hear it was a launch title.

 

[superballs]

I was really excited about Tom, though I rank it below average when it comes to farsight's recreations.

It was one of the first of the core pack that I can say I got good at but these days I rarely play it. Funny though because at the time I had a super hate on for rbion and now I have a lot of love for it. ToTAN is a masterpiece in the collection. It plays well and can be either very easy or extremely punishing depending on the day.

I loved and will always love black hole but I find it to be a rather easy table now so I don't play it much either these days.

ToM certainly has a lot less woodchipping than medieval madness.

 

[CC13]

I'm glad they put in a pin with a deeper or "complicated" ruleset. Keep in mind they were marketing to established pinball fans too, almost moreso than new players at that point. Personally I prefer the straightforward pins too, but a complex pin such as RBION appealed to a certain crowd, and also to a lot of new players as well.

You may not place any faith in ratings, but Farsight does because the top rated machines are those that are the most popular and respected among pinheads, and therefore they're going to bring in better sales.

In regards to TOM and TOTAN not being top 10 pins, everyone has their own opinion, but you're definitely in the minority on that one. TOM "gets a pass" because of JPop's other pins? Funny because TOM is generally the most well-regarded among pinheads and rated higher than any of JPop's other machines, as it should be because it was his masterpiece. When TPA was first announced, TOM was definitely the first big reveal from Farsight, and at the time the fans were over the moon to hear it was a launch title.

I realize that I'm in the minority where ToM is concerned, but I still stand by my previous statements concerning the table, though I admit that the less-than-stellar physics on FarSight's early releases might have unfairly turned me against it. Either way, though, given my druthers, WCS94 would have replaced ToM–I consider WCS94 the benchmark against which simpler DMD pins (i.e., Black Rose, Fish Tales, Terminator 2) should be measured. I love the flow, I love the A/V, I love the goal shots and I can safely say that, at least right now, WCS94 is a top 10 table for me. Also, my perspective is vastly different from most other pinheads for one big reason: I am one of the few people who got into real pinball through TPA, so the aforementioned less-than-perfect implementation of ToM probably colored my view of that table more than it would have done for most other people.

As for the ratings issue, I don't think I'm the only one to not place much stock in ratings. Several of the table polls we've run over the past 12 months have gotten results that contradict what Pinside's and IPDB's ratings say that pinheads think, including Flight 2000's victory in the Classic Stern poll (even though I really enjoy F2K, it's a sub-7.000 table according to Pinside), Back to the Future's #8 spot in the Premium Licensed poll (mostly on the strength of the license, from what I've gathered) and High Roller Casino's #5 finish in the Stern/Data East/Sega poll (YES!! This was one of my favorite tables at PAPA 16–I literally played it until the slot machine ramp broke!). I understand that FarSight want to recreate the tables that they think will sell, but have my doubts about some of their calls in this regard (will we EVER get another early solid state?). Hopefully, TPA keeps going long enough that we can all get our favorites, but it seems we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Hopefully, TPA keeps going long enough that we can all get our favorites, but it seems we'll just have to wait and see.

Agreed, man. Also glad to hear that you got into pinball because of TPA.

 

[Kratos3]

Bowflex makes a good point about not really knowing how this would sell. The PHOF Williams Collection didn't do very well at all.

Mobile and Tablets. Pinball is perfect for a quick gaming session.

PHOF was my favorite PSP game(next to the God of War games, obviously), and I was really bummed when I couldn't get it on the Vita.

I always like when these topics come up. "Why did they release (insert TPA table)?" "They should have made (insert table I like)." It's definitely how I feel about Goin' Nuts. There is no table on TPA I dislike more. I do really like ToM, though. It's one of my all-time favorites(which is the proper spelling, by the way), and a big reason why I bought TPA.

One of the best things about TPA, though, is that you'll play tables you might not have ever before.

 

[shutyertrap]

Revisionist history? Let's play!

I would have replaced TotAN with MM. That's just me though. ToM seemed like the obvious Bally choice, unless TAF had of been in the cards. ToM was extremely popular among the owners market, so it made sense. I like that RBION made it too, as I think RCT and Monopoly are quite divisive on who actually likes them.

Regarding pricing, I think there should just have been one price for each table. Don't make one table seem more important than any other table. While I enjoy having table packs, I would have enjoyed having single table releases too (because I wouldn't have known any better!)

My single biggest wish FS had of done at launch was have a finished and polished UI. No placeholders, no temporary images. Just everything clean and polished and ready to impress. Instead I think they showed a chink in the armor and where there's one, we know there's probably another. Sure enough, people found 'em.

My other wish is that FS had of figured out a way to release all formats on the same day. We the fans would benefit because it keeps us as one community talking about the same thing. FS would have benefited because many would have bought over multiple platforms before REALLY playing a table and deciding they could skip it on one or the other.

My final wish in hindsight is that they had hired an actual PR person from the start. Someone who could really manage press releases and handle information in such a manner that it couldn't be called into question later on.

 

[Roo]

1) Why did FarSight go with RBION for its Stern rep? That seems a bit too complicated for a starter table to me. Personally, I would have gone with either High Roller Casino or Monopoly, though Sharkey's Shootout could have proven an interesting dark horse pick.

1.) The guys at Farsight seem to be pretty big Pat Lawlor fans, and RBION is generally rated higher than the others you mentioned. Plus it has a deeper ruleset and is often regarded as a poor man's TZ. At that time, they probably never dreamed that The Twilight Zone would make it into TPA (they didn't even consider Kickstarters until fans kept suggesting they go that route), so they probably figured RBION was a good alternative. Also, apparently it was a relatively cheap license, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to obtain it at that point.

I recall hearing (don't remember where...might have been Bobby speaking at the Chicago Expo) that they had the chance to get that license and jumped on it. I think he talked about how licencors can be strange and some of them won't even deal with you until you've worked with other licensed properties. By that account, getting the RBION license and releasing that table may have paved the way for negotiations on bigger licenses for later tables.

 

[canuck]

Knowing now about the operation they are doing, I would have had them offering the game with Tales of the Arabian Nights for free and all additional games be offered as single tables. .

I actually downloaded TPA for my ipad on a whim when I saw it was a free app of the week. TOTAN was the free table and I played it to death over a weekend vacation. Then I got the disease and have since spent around nearly $100 buying up the other tables.

 

[Byte]

Bowflex makes a good point about not really knowing how this would sell. The PHOF Williams Collection didn't do very well at all.

Wonder why. I have it store-bought for PS2, PSP and Wii. Been trying to get a PS3 copy from a reliable Canadian source for a reasonable price that accepts credit card payments (I refuse to do business with PayPal) but no luck so far.