TPA Wishlist - The Ultimate 100

[Rudy]

The biggest problem with World Cup 94 is that it actually relies on a few hidden licenses that may be very hard to acquire.

The World Cup competition is FIFAs competition, and it's been proven very difficult for football games to call an international cup competition "The World Cup". Most compromises end up being something like "The International Cup" or "World Conquest" or something ridiculous like that.

The table also features the USA mascot (that weird football dog) which could be tricky to license because it was a creation of the US Football Association (or sporting authority, I really don't know the technical elements of this) and I get the feeling that artists would have to be paid for things like that >_>

So methinks Farsight would have to get approval from the US Football Association, FIFA and probably a few other minor license holders. Given how money hungry FIFA are and how hard it has been for major football games to get the licenses for certain teams, I don't think that Farsight stand a chance unless lots of people are willing to waive the rights to stuff that they probably own on 20-30 year contracts.

 

[Fuseball]

I just call it like I see it. I'd really like to include Cactus Canyon, but between its low production run and extremely high collector cost, it would be a shock regardless of it being a non-licensed table.

I think Cactus Canyon would likely only be viable if a kind owner gave the game to FS on loan. Not beyond the realms of possibility but largely out of FS's hands. It's a game that I would personally love to see in TPA.

 

[shutyertrap]

I think Cactus Canyon would likely only be viable if a kind owner gave the game to FS on loan. Not beyond the realms of possibility but largely out of FS's hands. It's a game that I would personally love to see in TPA.

Well, finding out that Tim Arnold helped FS out when they were doing the original Gottlieb PHOF, puts this more into the realm of possibility. Guess who has a Cactus Canyon at his Pinball Hall of Fame in Las Vegas.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Yet another update, this time to extend the date range out both ways and include PotC and AC/DC, since Bobby is reportedly seeking them out. If he has mentioned these in interviews, I guess that debunks any theory that SAM technology would hinder Stern tables post-2006. Also, added Slick Chick from 1963, as it is consistently the highest-rated EM. That makes 7 total, still not that many against 93 SS tables of various types.

A couple years ago, I said that I could never get on board with download-only games. They appealed to a more casual audience, and without a hard copy to bookshelf with my collection, I just couldn't see a digital release locking horns with any of my console or PC favorites. Now, I'm surprised to find two digital releases in my all-time Top 10:

01) Persona 3 FES
02) Mass Effect 2
03) Final Fantasy VII
04) Demon's Souls
05) Super Metroid
06) Chrono Trigger
07) The Pinball Arcade
08) Yakuza 4
09) Vindictus
10) Suikoden

Congrats, FarSight, you're only the second to break that barrier, yet your game has actually surpassed the first to do so (Vindictus).

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

CHAMPOIN PUB!!! I spent the most time playing this table at the pacific pinball expo this weekend, even with weak flippers it was so fun.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Another update. Replaced Roller Disco [Gottlieb 1980] with TX-Sector [Gottlieb 1987] and Galaxy [Stern 1980] with Flight 2000 [Stern 1980], both based on forum user requests and poll results. I was really torn between Galaxy and Flight 2000, but since the "Old Stern FTW" poll showed Seawitch, Catacomb, and Flight 2000 as the clear winners, I don't see any sense in including both.

Take note, FarSight. When you decide to work on some older, non-licensed Sterns to fill the inevitable void against a Williams and Bally onslaught, those are the three we need most, please

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Now, to supplement the existing Ultimate 100, I've constructed another "Lower 200" list to catalog the noteworthy tables that I DON'T think we'll see in The Pinball Arcade. These are all highly-rated or historically significant tables, so I think it's safe to say that if a table doesn't appear among these or the original 100, it probably doesn't deserve FarSight's attention. Unlike the previous list, though, this one includes all types of pinball from 25 manufacturers, whether they're flipperless, extreme rarities, cocktail tables, Pinball 2000, or anything else unorthodox in addition to the standard formats.

 

[Rudy]

Considering that Rollercoaster Tycoon is almost abandonware these days, I think it'd be very easy to pick up the licenses for that (much easier than say, Harley Davidson)

The only problems I could see would be trying to find physical tables (I don't know how many tables were produced but I assume there are no more than 2000 tables) and untangling the legal mess of Infogrames. I'm pretty sure that company went bust some time ago after a few nasty commercial failures and it'd be pretty hard to work out who exactly should be contacted in order to get the table.

The table itself looks pretty interesting (in a No Good Gofers kind of way) and considering it's another Pat Lawler table it should be good to play, right?

I don't expect it in a top 100 tables list but I don't expect it in a '100 almost certs to not come to TPA' list. It's somewhere in the middle and I could actually see it in there considering that Farsight have a habit of throwing lovely curve-balls every now and again to mix things up like Harley Davidson, Ripley's Believe It or Not and Monster Bash (if only because it required licensing eight of the Universal Movie Monsters)

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Perhaps I wasn't completely clear with the purpose of that second 200 list. The original 100 was a top-tier of tables that are not only great but also quite viable for TPA release. The second list is second-tier, meaning that every one of them COULD appear in TPA but are too rare, not quite as highly rated, too difficult to license, or too obsolete in theme to reach that upper level. That means this 200 list IS the middle, barely out of the running, based on my opinions, Top lists from Pinside and IPDB, and feedback on this forum. Don't take it so much as "definitely won't appear", as all of them are worthy (just not as likely). Anything on a lower tier... well, someone else can spend their time on that list, since these 300 are really the only ones I would have an interest in, ya know?

Now, if FarSight really wants to keep developing TPA for the next decade, I wouldn't mind seeing all 300 in the game. But since that's not likely, I had to pick a third to fill out the original 100, which I think is completely possible.

Oh, and of course, the second list also includes tables from 19 manufacturers that wouldn't fall under FarSight's licensing anyway.

 

[shutyertrap]

Now, if FarSight really wants to keep developing TPA for the next decade, I wouldn't mind seeing all 300 in the game. But since that's not likely, I had to pick a third to fill out the original 100, which I think is completely possible.

Could you imagine, 5 years from now someone stumbling upon TPA for the first time, and seeing this giant list of dlc?! It'd be like stepping into Rock Band, right now. You do the quick math and realize it's gonna be the most expensive game you own! One thing's for sure, they'll need a different front end menu by that time.

 

[SlamCitySkates]

Hi Joshua - Good Lists. Thanks for this. I have a few comments regarding tables I would swop from the first list to the second.

1. Revenge from Mars is a gimme in the Top 100. Its by no means a great table, but in terms of 'pinball history' its an interesting one.
2. Id be amazed if we ever see POTC, LOTR, The Simpsons or Family Guy
3. Johnny Mnenomic is a solid top 100 table. Its the quality of the pin that TPA are interested in, not the quality of the film and the licensing issues you mention are no more / no less than many of the pins in your top 100.
4. Stern have a very strong line up and, IMHO, plenty of tables that can be reproduced before we get into the likes of ACDC and POTC. Monopoly, for instance, is a strong table. I personally think RCT is a stinker, however. Its the lack of Gottlieb tables Id be more worried about. I would however, say that the Jersey Jack table and the current Tron table have absolutely no chance of an emulation whilst they are still up for sale.
5. The only table I dont see is StreetFighter. Its a Sega table where Honda smashes the car will the ball in a mini table. Its a pretty decent table - far better than someting like Hook for instance!

But anyway, the lists are well though out nonetheless. Sadly I cant flick back to the original list, but I assume WhoDunnit? is on it - that has to be a certainty. I reckon, given the high esteem the tables are kept in that the next 'public appeal for money' will be for TAF or IJ.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Hi Joshua - Good Lists. Thanks for this. I have a few comments regarding tables I would swop from the first list to the second.

1. Revenge from Mars is a gimme in the Top 100. Its by no means a great table, but in terms of 'pinball history' its an interesting one.
2. Id be amazed if we ever see POTC, LOTR, The Simpsons or Family Guy
3. Johnny Mnenomic is a solid top 100 table. Its the quality of the pin that TPA are interested in, not the quality of the film and the licensing issues you mention are no more / no less than many of the pins in your top 100.
4. Stern have a very strong line up and, IMHO, plenty of tables that can be reproduced before we get into the likes of ACDC and POTC. Monopoly, for instance, is a strong table. I personally think RCT is a stinker, however. Its the lack of Gottlieb tables Id be more worried about. I would however, say that the Jersey Jack table and the current Tron table have absolutely no chance of an emulation whilst they are still up for sale.
5. The only table I dont see is StreetFighter. Its a Sega table where Honda smashes the car will the ball in a mini table. Its a pretty decent table - far better than someting like Hook for instance!

But anyway, the lists are well though out nonetheless. Sadly I cant flick back to the original list, but I assume WhoDunnit? is on it - that has to be a certainty. I reckon, given the high esteem the tables are kept in that the next 'public appeal for money' will be for TAF or IJ.

I appreciate the comments, and here are my counterpoints:

1) The Ultimate 100 isn't so much a "top" list as it is an educated guess at the prioritization of tables that would be viable for reproduction into TPA. There would be no sense in added development on Pinball 2000 tables when few people liked them and even fewer tables used the technology. Revenge from Mars would be the only possibility for TPA, since no one cares much about Star Wars Episode I anyway, and that would be a waste of time on FarSight's part.

2) Bobby King himself has expressed interest in pursuing AC/DC and PotC, and both LotR and The Simpsons Pinball Party demand eventual attention as they fall into the Top 10's/20's for practically every major resource list. There have been long multi-thread discussions, both on this forum and others, about the viability of these games and the emulation of SAM for the first two. They may never happen, but I think FarSight will definitely try for all of these.

3) In JM's case, it's not about being a top-rated table. I've played it. It's very good. But it holds practically zero current market potential for anyone who doesn't already know it as a great pinball table. If you look at the other licenses that FS has acquired or planned to pursue, they're all either timeless classic brands/franchises or currently active IPs. For licenses like that, FS may be willing to jump through the necessary hoops, but if JM doesn't have much chance to attract new players as well as the old ones, I just don't see it rising high enough on the priority list. Demolition Man is the only similar license I've included in the original 100, and in terms of necessary residuals, even it would be much easier than Johnny Mnemonic. Everything else is much higher profile.

4) I'll concede on this one, since yours and others' feedback has already put me on the fence about it. I originally included Monopoly because I thought it was a good table with an easy license, but I never heard anyone voice an opinion about it until I replaced it with Family Guy based on several other user requests. In hindsight, I agree that Family Guy has much less chance of appearing in TPA than the other Sterns listed, so I've re-swapped it with Monopoly. I also think that Monopoly could be one of the earlier Sterns that we get, since FS would need some Stern filler [other than Old 1977-1982 classics] before approaching some of the big-name IPs in their line-up. That's not to suggest that Monopoly is a lame IP, just that it already gets licensed to death with dozens of board game variants and marketing tie-ins, which means it should be a simple grab for FS.

5) Street Fighter was a Gottlieb table, and there isn't a single one in the Lower 200 that I would replace with it. Even Hook holds a higher score on IPDB than Street Fighter, with the Pinside rating also being within a tenth of a point and the higher table value going to Hook. There are many personal favorites that I have kept out of the Ultimate 100 because I was trying to be objective, cross-referencing ratings, forum user feedback, FS's release history, table availability, collector cost, licensing difficulty, and a variety of other factors to determine the best candidates. The Lower 200 doesn't have to deal with these factors as much, but because it incorporates all table types, it still only represents the upper 15th percentile of all pinball tables [when combined with the original 100].

Last but not least, you said you were concerned about the Gottlieb selection, but unless emulation of their early SS tables continues to cause controversy, I could easily double the number of great Gottlieb machines in the Ultimate 100, as there are MANY I would love to play more than the Stern tables. I'd like to see Haunted House and TX-Sector long before additional licensed tables, and if I were just listing personal favorites, Arena and Cue Ball Wizard would have been in the Ultimate 100. But again, I was trying to keep things balanced and objective since we hope FarSight will continue doing the same. In the end, I've swapped out Monopoly, nonetheless, and hopefully you can understand my logic and all of the factors I accounted for in the list.

Oh, and yes, WHO dunnit? is in the Ultimate 100, as I am thoroughly convinced that FS will include it at some point.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

By the way, to download a PDF file including both the Ultimate 100 and the Lower 200, use the following link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/107062612/Pinball-Arcade-Wish-List-Extended#fullscreen

With more than 1800 EM and SS tables in existence since 1931, the odds of predicting the exact line-up of 100 tables that FarSight could potentially release in a 4-year run would statistically be less than the chances of winning the PowerBall lottery. However, by using some of the same resources as FarSight's development team, posting influential requests in these forums, and cross-referencing table availabililty with collector cost versus licensing difficulty, I estimate that we could improve the accuracy of the Ultimate 100 to approximately 85%. Certainly, FarSight may come across some unpredictable licensing opportunities, and a few surprises along the way would be welcome. But to gauge which tables deserve attention in the coming months and years, I appreciate any constructive feedback that you may provide. Thanks to all.

 

[Kolchak357]

I would rather Family Guy, but I agree that it is much more likely that we see Monopoly. Monopoly is not a table you hear about that often, but it looks pretty good to me.

 

[gooche77]

Lord of the Rings and Simpsons Pinball Party would be welcome additions and hopefully easier to design since it's pre-SAM.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Don't get me wrong; I don't expect to see LotR or Simpsons anytime soon, unless they're what the "surprises from Stern" comment was in reference to. I'm sure FS will hold off on any more Kickstarters until they can deliver on one or both of the completed campaigns. Then, we would still have to see what develops after The Addams Family and Indiana Jones: The Pinball Adventure. Those two are constantly seen as the next big licenses due to their Top 10 placement, and according to recent statements at the end of ST:TNG's run, FS is "sure [we] know which one's [they're] talking about". Not to be a killjoy, but my earliest expectation for LotR or Simpsons would be late 2013 or early 2014.

And that's only if FS doesn't choose one of the other majors first. AC/DC and Pirates of the Caribbean may already be up for negotiation, for all we know, and what about Terminator 2, Dracula, Jurassic Park, or Tales from the Crypt? TAF and IJ may be the next logical choices, but until some of the successful Kickstarters start generating enough revenue to leverage against new licenses, FS will probably take the path of [less] resistance on some of these big IPs. Can't say I blame them. They're truly accomplishing the impossible with TPA, as it is. Maybe they could at least bring up Data East's Star Wars licensing in the middle of Indy negotiations, right? Two birds, one stone?

As another quick note, I was just informed that Stern owns the Chicago Coin license, but since Stampede and Rawhide would probably be the most noteworthy legacy tables that license could produce, I don't think FS would make Chicago Coin releases much of a priority.

 

[Rudy]

I completely forgot about Dracula. Is that a Universal Movie Monsters license? or is it based on the later film?

Because Universal are re-releasing their key Universal Movie Monsters films on blu-ray on the 1st of October and considering what we have already (Monster Bash, Creature from the Black Lagoon) it looks like Farsight could have licensed ALL of the Universal Movie Monsters characters for pinball tables as a cross-promotion thing with Universal.

Are there any other tables based on these six (or eight, can't remember) characters?

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Bram Stoker's Dracula would probably require additional licenses for actors, voice clips, etc. from the movie. But the Universal Monsters license might cover Data East's Phantom of the Opera table. That would be awesome, since it's easily my favorite Data East machine anyway.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

The table Bram Stoker's Dracula is based on the 1992 movie of the same name, not the earlier Universal work.

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

Phantom of the Opera is FUN! and playing it at night exposes his face under the mask! what about thae frankenstien movie table I forget the authors name. Party monsters would be cool since were getting DR.DUDE all wed need is PARTY ZONE