Very torn about Farsight as a company (sort of rant but also a question, confused)

[Psy-Q]

I've held off on buying any tables for maybe three years now, playing TOTAN from time to time but mostly doing Visual Pinball. I do love the look of the TPA tables, but somehow I can't decide what to think about Farsight and so I don't know if I should actually buy a few season packs.

Somehow it feels to me like Farsight is like the violent husband in an abusive marriage. Not that they beat you up and you go running back to them anyhow two days later, but more in the sense of there are decisions, but then no decisions. Actions, but then no actions. Signals, but then no signals.

Examples: First the passive stance on cabinet support, followed now by the Arcooda deal (do we know if cab support is coming to the "normal" TPA yet? Is this an exclusive deal? What's even going on?)

Then the new interface that looks like a website in the late 90s made with Photoshop 2.0 using too many Alienskin Drop Shadow and Bevel effects. Hands up those old enough to remember when Photoshop had no drop shadow built in. It's all more or less functional if you know to avoid the bugs, and it's not much less stylish than the old one, but still. I've seen designers offer to redesign the thing for free and that must hurt. And finally the long-standing bugs that seem to get no attention at all. But once you get past the menu, things are very beautiful (to my eyes and in DX11 mode). I'd so wish that the menu were slick and functional so that people wouldn't be repulsed. Sometimes it seems like public relations, management, in-game programming and menu programming/design are four different teams that only talk to each other via carrier pigeon once a month.

So is the grass greener elsewhere? Magic Pixel seem to be improving Zaccaria quite a bit, its menus are equally ugly but functional, but this is early access so I'd cut them some slack. The DMD is pixellated and ugly, but the rest is on par with TPA I would say. Plus they thought of cab support from day one.

Zen Studios have the advantage of having much cheaper tables but also an engine that runs smooth as butter on all the hardware I've tried, plus they've started supporting cab owners and are very responsive to support requests in general.

Then we have Barnstorm Games and their completely different approach to pinball simluation, but it seems to work and is smooth and beautiful even on a ULV processor with embedded graphics. Plus there is Linux support and they've managed to cram some cab features in there as well, even if it means stretching the whole playfield out of proportion.

I would not hesitate to buy tables from any of those companies, not one second. But the image Farsight projects for me is (sorry for the bad analogy) that of a pinball caught between bumpers. They bump from place to place without control and run on half-fulfilled promises and exclusive deals and somehow it all works, but it's not graceful to watch.

How do you feel about them? Does anyone know people inside Farsight? They seem like cool people in the videos. Is it just a very tough market and are they stretching thin trying to please everybody? Then why aren't the other companies also like that? I've probably spent more time thinking about whether I want to buy a table pack than it takes me to make the money to buy a table pack, so this is all highly irrational, but I'm confused and intrigued at the same time and happy about anything that helps make a decision, for or against

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

First, I think maybe you need to be more selective of your analogies. As they go, the one you choose is at best insensitive, and at worst, might cause genuine offense or upset to someone on the forum.

As for Farsight themselves - they have two problems:

1. They spread themselves too thin. At this time they are actively supporting TPA on: Android, iOS, Windows, XONE, PS4, WiiU, Ouya/Forge, X360, PS3, Vita. 10 platforms, and while they may not be releasing a table a month on every one of those platforms, I imagine they are at least preparing a build of each table, every month, for those platforms so that they can be ready for sumbission to the relevant storefront when the time comes. Of those, only Android, iOS, and Windows actually receive monthly updates. They are also developing or supporting SPA on Android (note: the Gear VR version, is, of course, Android-based, so it's strange that the non-VR Android version is yet to appear), iOS (released today, it appears), Windows (release soon?), XONE, and PS4. While they've announced other platforms, I don't see SPA appearing on last-gen consoles, or WiiU. That is a lot of work for a studio with fewer than 50 employees.

2. They overreach, despite knowing their limitations. They're not alone in that, look at every AAA title out there that came with promises of this feature or that feature, and are filled with bugs that are never addressed, it's just within the microcosm of this community, Farsight gets the focus. Software development is hard, and sometimes fixing one bug can inadvertantly cause another (been there, done that, got the T-shirt).

Their business model also doesn't mesh well with longer-term development plans. They need to have a new table ready to roll every month, without fail, and that takes priority over any other projects. Working on projects piecemeal is a great way to have them drag on, because you don't get into them and every time you come back to it, you almost have to start over and refresh your memory on what's been done, what still needs doing, how it works etc. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience here.

Consider that, for the past 3 or 4 years, Farsight have, without fail, released 1 or 2 new digitized pinball tables every month on 3 different platforms (Android, iOS, Windows), with semi-regular updates on consoles (one every 6 months or so? - now how often do Zen release tables? - the difference is, TPA console players can see what they're missing; Zen, you don't). How many other games studios have that kind of business model, and have been delivering in that capacity over such an extended period?

 

[Xanija]

Wow, so many thoughts just about whether or not to buy some tables or not? In 3 years you might have had the chance to play a lot of tables for free. So you should know by now whether or not you like the tables. But I read you are more interested in what the company behind it is like. That's confusing. Especially when you bring up Zen and Magic Pixel, which both produce completely different kind of tables. If I only had one choice, I would always go with TPA, as I like those tables most. No matter what I think about the companies producing the games.

Here's the thing: I would only look at what I get right now, when I buy a table/season/whatever. Do I enjoy playing it as it is right now? Is it worth my money? Then buy it. Everything else is irrelevant for me. Cab support? I couldn't care less. I don't plan to have a cab, so why should I care. If it is important to you, you still need to decide which tables are fun to play. It doesn't help to have cab support if you hate the tables or the physics or whatever.

 

[yespage]

TPA isn't perfect and release of tables for PS is torturously slow.

But I have access to 72 real world pinball tables, all of which except for 1 (Black Knight), plays well. It isn't perfect, the physics could be better, etc... etc..., but there is nothing out there that gives access to so many tables, forget reliable play experiences. I literally have a Pinball Arcade available to me, without having to pay anymore money game to game.

Farsight has provided all of this, at a relatively low price.

I think people sometimes get lost in the what they don't have verses the what they actually have.

 

[Tron]

If you've held off for the last three years your minds already made up. Let it go.

 

[Psy-Q]

I'm sorry if it sounded offensive, I just couldn't think of a good way to express what I mean. I do very much care about the philosophy and the actions of a company before I buy from them. That's why I don't buy from Amazon for example, because of their tax evasion and the dirty tricks they pull so they can treat their logistics employees like cattle in Germany. I'm not exaggerating much for dramatic effect, they have gone on strike over this several times. But Amazon is just an example.

It's noticeable that something is weighing Farsight down in some way, but looking at the friendly people in the pics it wasn't obvious. Thanks for the explanation, EldarOfSuburbia, so it really is just that they stretch themselves too thin. So they focus everything on in-game experience and porting cross-platform and then don't have enough resources to polish the rest. It can also seem to be laziness, but that made no sense to me as it wouldn't gel with the amount of platforms they support and how good in-game is.

I didn't know they released with such a frequency and I wonder why they have to, but I guess it's like you say, that's intimately tied to their business model.

Thanks everyone for the information. I just bought season pack one and I'm sure I'll be happy as it has some of my favorite tables. Also bought most of Zen's stuff since there's a sale -- I like both game styles and I'm aware they don't compare.

Sorry that I couldn't express the kind of multiple personality vibe I get from Farsight without offending.

 

[Heretic]

farisight made my wife leave me!(well if i had one)

Over the years most of us have a few WTF moments with farsight as a company but most of us just wandered back to playing the game. i wouldnt hold my breath for big featue overhauls in the short term no matter how often the idea has been mentioned even offically.

from my personal opinion they have always made some strange choices, but they are still chugging along nicely...they are features id love to see, but some of those aere in the minoitry and some are very important like PARAGON (hint hint).

overall they arent an evil company and for the most part are fairly open as far as non indie long term stuidos go. business is business theres always some iffy bits but heyyyyyyy DING DING.....its not all black and white....except for those gingers they are evil mofos

 

[AnvilCloud]

Sorry that I couldn't express the kind of multiple personality vibe I get from Farsight without offending.

Don't worry about it, too much oversensitivity with people these days, I saw your point instead of getting stuck on the words you used to express it.

In general, as mentioned they do seem to spread themselves too thin, and that alone affects quite a lot. The quality between platforms tends to differ, issues are rarely fixed in a timely manner, etc. It's been months and we still don't have a menu music on/off option on android. Or dark room modes. Or editable camera angles......

Then there are strange decisions, like the UI mentioned - riddled with bugs and feels like a downgrade. SPA doesn't have a much better one either, might even say it's worse from my brief exposure to it so far.

Having said that, they are one of the few companies that makes actual pinball simulations for many platforms. Wonder how things would look if there was better competition in the pinball simulation category.

 

[Slam23]

I was there when this app launched 6 years ago, and we have come a long way. In those early seasons, a new table release could easily break the whole app. People waited with updating until a few brave pioneers reported back from the Neutral Zone. There was no remote backup in the beginning. And when it came, it could wipe your scores. Rollovers were a big issue (and to be fair, some are still there). Physics have come a long way too. Communication has never been the strong suit of Farsight but I think they are very much improved now with employees like Flippyfloppy responding quickly on these forums. I always liked VP and there are some beautiful tables out there. But it is on one platform only and has no leaderboard system. Granted, the one from Farsight is far from perfect with hacking and misplaces scores, but it is the best we have. So I have had my share of heartbreak in this relationship, but I still come back for more!

 

[Kolchak357]

^ Well said sir. Clap clap clap

 

[Ben Logan]

I like TPA on iPad. I'm also thankful that they're raising awareness for real pinball. I'm glad TPA and SPA exist. Flipper physics are quite good. I agree that their staff comes across as inclusive of nice people who genuinely like pinball.

That said, the most important thing is glaringly absent: Proper ball physics. They're boring, lifeless, and not even remotely close to real pinball. Latest EMs are fun though, as the gross limitations of physics engine aren't as exposed.

If FS ever hires a genius mathematician who happens to love pinball to rework the physics, count me in to buy every table on multiple platforms. Seriously. They do look quite nice in DX11.

For now, its VP on cabinet at home, and an occasional table FS purchase on iPad.

 

[HotHamBoy]

I admire Farsight for what they do and dislike them for what they don't do.

I think better communication would go a long way.

 

[Heretic]

as far as the commication issue goes...has anyone ever really got a vaild decent reply of a game company....and not a small indie who needs exposure...genuine question

edit - overall in the almost 5 years tpa has been going we have gotten far more from farsight than most companies would offer, even if it means they shot themselves in the foot discussing vauge ideas and/or features

 

[Ben Logan]

A few months ago they started that "post your issues here and FS will respond to them" thread. That was a nice gesture. Wish we'd get more of that.

 

[Blkthorne]

First, I think maybe you need to be more selective of your analogies. As they go, the one you choose is at best insensitive, and at worst, might cause genuine offense or upset to someone on the forum.

As for Farsight themselves - they have two problems:

1. They spread themselves too thin. At this time they are actively supporting TPA on: Android, iOS, Windows, XONE, PS4, WiiU, Ouya/Forge, X360, PS3, Vita. 10 platforms, and while they may not be releasing a table a month on every one of those platforms, I imagine they are at least preparing a build of each table, every month, for those platforms so that they can be ready for sumbission to the relevant storefront when the time comes. Of those, only Android, iOS, and Windows actually receive monthly updates. They are also developing or supporting SPA on Android (note: the Gear VR version, is, of course, Android-based, so it's strange that the non-VR Android version is yet to appear), iOS (released today, it appears), Windows (release soon?), XONE, and PS4. While they've announced other platforms, I don't see SPA appearing on last-gen consoles, or WiiU. That is a lot of work for a studio with fewer than 50 employees.

2. They overreach, despite knowing their limitations. They're not alone in that, look at every AAA title out there that came with promises of this feature or that feature, and are filled with bugs that are never addressed, it's just within the microcosm of this community, Farsight gets the focus. Software development is hard, and sometimes fixing one bug can inadvertantly cause another (been there, done that, got the T-shirt).

Their business model also doesn't mesh well with longer-term development plans. They need to have a new table ready to roll every month, without fail, and that takes priority over any other projects. Working on projects piecemeal is a great way to have them drag on, because you don't get into them and every time you come back to it, you almost have to start over and refresh your memory on what's been done, what still needs doing, how it works etc. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience here.

Consider that, for the past 3 or 4 years, Farsight have, without fail, released 1 or 2 new digitized pinball tables every month on 3 different platforms (Android, iOS, Windows), with semi-regular updates on consoles (one every 6 months or so? - now how often do Zen release tables? - the difference is, TPA console players can see what they're missing; Zen, you don't). How many other games studios have that kind of business model, and have been delivering in that capacity over such an extended period?

Totally agree with these points, kind of wish Farsight would "cut some fat" from all the platforms they are on, sorry to those that want TPA on Wii U/Ouya/360/PS3/Vita/VR but think they would be better served by offering to let you get TPA on another platform of your choice. I would get rid of season passes on Xbox1/PS4 til all the tables are released similar to the Apple platforms, maybe only release half a season at a time but stop with the monthly updates since it's pretty obvious something is wrong in Sony/Microsoft ways of dealing with them.

Hire people whose sole job is to work on bugs/fix old textures on tables.

 

[rehtroboi40]

Totally agree with these points, kind of wish Farsight would "cut some fat" from all the platforms they are on, sorry to those that want TPA on Wii U/Ouya/360/PS3/Vita/VR but think they would be better served by offering to let you get TPA on another platform of your choice. I would get rid of season passes on Xbox1/PS4 til all the tables are released similar to the Apple platforms, maybe only release half a season at a time but stop with the monthly updates since it's pretty obvious something is wrong in Sony/Microsoft ways of dealing with them.

Hire people whose sole job is to work on bugs/fix old textures on tables.

I agree with your point about Sony and Microsoft. I wonder if any other small indie companies have as much difficulty dealing with them as FarSight does. But then again, most of their products aren't in continual development like TPA is.

For all of my disagreement and occasional disappointment with FarSight, I still believe they do a much better job supporting their product than some companies. Just look at DotEmu's attempts at classic emulation-they support their products with maybe a patch or two, and that's the end of the product for them, complete with still-glaring bugs. TPA turns 5 this coming February, and they still support it, stretched thin as they are, as Elder pointed out.

 

[Psy-Q]

as far as the commication issue goes...has anyone ever really got a vaild decent reply of a game company....and not a small indie who needs exposure...genuine question

Would you say Zen Studios is an indie? They have 50 -100 employees. I'm not sure, but I think they are about the size of FarSight but the big communication difference is they have BarbieBobomb. She is quick, responsive and funny on the forums and that's sometimes all it takes. Even if technical issues or management decisions are something she can't do anything about, at least she can relay things between players and the company.

Of course it's probably much cheaper to afford a full-time community manager in Hungary than in the USA, maybe that's also a big difference. If you're talking about the likes of UbiSoft, EA or Bethesda, nope, never received any useful replies from any of them. But smaller shops yes.

 

[codinghorror]

Consider that, for the past 3 or 4 years, Farsight have, without fail, released 1 or 2 new digitized pinball tables every month on 3 different platforms (Android, iOS, Windows), with semi-regular updates on consoles (one every 6 months or so? - now how often do Zen release tables? - the difference is, TPA console players can see what they're missing; Zen, you don't). How many other games studios have that kind of business model, and have been delivering in that capacity over such an extended period?

Hear, hear.

Real, licensed digitizations of actual pinball tables created monthly, like clockwork, with professional care, for the last 3+ years -- plus the amazing DX11 graphics engine we finally got to -- are the reason I will support Farsight literally forever, as long as they keep digitizing top 100 pinball tables. At least the ones that don't require incredible licensing contortions, anyway.

(I will have some extra special Christian Side Hugs if they go back and re-scan the season 1 and season 2 tables at higher resolution, though! I'm happy to pay a small upgrade fee if needed! Take my money!)

I am a superfan for life Farsight and I will buy the CRAP out of your stuff to support it. You are all doing God's work.

 

[MIK]

as far as the commication issue goes...has anyone ever really got a vaild decent reply of a game company....and not a small indie who needs exposure...genuine question

Yeah but,

More a case that I was in the right place at the right time. While all private contact was only ever done via email or online with their games, a relationship of trust had to be built up first. Once that happened anything they said or showed me was not allowed to be shared with others!

 

[Jeff Strong]

as far as the commication issue goes...has anyone ever really got a vaild decent reply of a game company....and not a small indie who needs exposure...genuine question

edit - overall in the almost 5 years tpa has been going we have gotten far more from farsight than most companies would offer, even if it means they shot themselves in the foot discussing vauge ideas and/or features

These days, it's actually pretty easy to get answers from development studios since they have dedicated Community Managers who get paid to hang out on the forums/social media and talk to the customers. Things have come a long way in that regard just in the past few years.

So yeah I've talked to a few from various studios just in the past week (at least 3 that I can think of off the top of my head).

As for Farsight's communication, I think they've gotten better as they've learned to adapt.