Williams Classic Arcade flipper physics and ball weight and physics

[smbhax]

(For actual PAPA-style tournament settings, Match sequences should be turned off, and flipper rubbers should be red; currently the rubbers are black in both Arcade and Tournament difficulties, even though they're much bouncier in Tournament difficulty--which is correct in terms of physics, but if they were also correctly colored red that would let the player and viewers tell at a glance which difficulty was in play; currently there's no way to tell visually, which is bad for streaming, video recording, etc.)

 

[HighFive]

Thanks Sorry it took this long to finally get there with the physics. I will try to implement it sooner rather than later to previous packs. The problem is the leaderboard question. Many users wouldn't be happy if we erase the scores but the gameplay would change considerably. We will try to come up with a solution.

You have my blessing to reset the scores!

Perhaps a solution is announce like a yearly leaderboard reset, but work something so we can see our best score each year. Numbers might be different for first three pack if doing some comparison year to year. Just an idea.

 

[HighFive]

Make resetting the scoreboards a yearly thing regardless of physics updates. So like January 1 (or whatever date you decide), everyone gets a new chance to be the top score. That way everyone KNOWS that the scores will be reset every year, no surprises. And then, you could have a section for yearly highscores to make the high scores year by year. Could reduce the butthurt and death-threats if people expect it to happen.

Just posting ideas.

Hmm should have read all post before posting mine just before, exact same thing i said lol.

 

[shutyertrap]

[MENTION=7660]deep[/MENTION] I know the leaderboards might seem like a concern, but if you asked any player "would you rather have leaderboards in favor of the better physics", nobody is going to pick leaderboards. Or if they do, they aren't fans of pinball, they are just fans of being atop leaderboards. No pinball machine on location has high scores for life, neither should digital. Reset the boards, make it a regular thing, that way the game can continually be tweaked and improved without a holy uproar over "how unfair it is" that certain scores are no longer as easy to achieve as when first released. This will also help in case Zen ever gets the Stern license, since patches to code are a common thing and would also require a leaderboard reset.

 

[Cloda]

I use the triggers on my Xbox One controller and I think because it is analogue, you can get those fine shots in as you can see in both these videos in Classic Arcade. I'll try again with my shoulder buttons, but I remember it was one of my big frustrations when I was still playing on Mac and used a joy to key app and only had digital input.

Tip passes are only really possible on Volume 4 (especially Hurricane) and Universal Monsters and the flick to stop the balls momentum that is rolling up a flipper, I can't recall that I got it right as good on Volume 4 as I can now. It really makes a massive difference.

I am still of the opinion that they slowed the ball down a bit too much and that the ball movement is now much more predictable compared to Volume 4 (more like Zen's physics modes predictability). As such it is much easier to control the ball.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=150842022932582

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=149577289725722

 

[mystman12]

Adding to what [MENTION=134]shutyertrap[/MENTION] said, anyone who sends death threats over a leaderboard being reset doesn't deserve a spot anyways.

 

[kencaine]

Why not make a rolling leader board. High scores have a life span of say three (3) months. Any score on the board is removed after the life span.

 

[Pete]

why not just give us access to look at legacy leader boards, just a simple spreadsheet of data and a menu option to view it. so anyone who labored very long to get up on it can still see and feel good about their past accomplishments. and that way people currently getting scores dont need to worry about them ever being wiped again and again and again. or give us the ability to pick and still play the older version physics with a separate leader board still intact.

 

[shutyertrap]

why not just give us access to look at legacy leader boards, just a simple spreadsheet of data and a menu option to view it. so anyone who labored very long to get up on it can still see and feel good about their past accomplishments. and that way people currently getting scores dont need to worry about them ever being wiped again and again and again. or give us the ability to pick and still play the older version physics with a separate leader board still intact.

Because it becomes this massive thing that has to continually be carried forward, and any time a change or update is made to the game, yet another ‘legacy’ board has to be created. Planned leaderboard wipes (I like that rolling idea) makes it so a person has to defend their position, that new players to the game won’t be intimidated about even attempting to reach the top, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Zen can make changes and tweaks without hassle.

Think about this...if Zen eventually gets the Stern license and they do a table that is still getting code updates from Stern, Sen would be less likely to patch if they also had to concern themselves with the boards. You know who couldn’t care less about those high score? Stern. Because they know new code = new reason to pump quarters into the machine again.

 

[Pete]

well whatever they do I don't even try for the scores anymore anyway so i dont care that much. Back during season 1 of TPA I became unhealthily obsessed with getting higher on the xbox360 medivel madness leader board, I had gotten into the 30's and was convinced i could get into the top 10, so i played it like all day for weeks. then suddenly the scores went bananas, i think some type of glitch or exploitation had created artificially inflated scores that didn't make comprehensible sense, which prompted them to reset everything. Totally gave up going for scores and questioned what im doing with my life lol.

 

[pinfan7]

I think the issue here is that there has been a shift from the more simulation physics of the sim-distinct mode to the more streamlined and "rounded" ones, with lost unpredictability and too much nerf of the ball speed in the arcade mode, which affects tournament mode as well -my exclusive mode-, and I've stated my opinion in the latest "Vol.5 impressions" thread here & here (including flipper physics with video examples), and I think I know why that happened, namely

newcomers going straight to the "arcade, real" mode that is the main selling point for the "real tables" (everyone wants to taste the real thing obviously, and as expected) and I've read this line somehow proving it:

"When I started FX the first time I chose "Arcade" mode straight away, simply because the naming is stupid. No one knows what "Zen" is supposed to be.",

skipping Zen mode and thus forcing Zen due to feedback to move in the other direction instead of what a sim objectively is trying to achieve.

So the problem lies in naming I think, but it can be easily solved!, it's the old discussion about how Zen names the different modes, which became confusing for newcomers to the Williams packs, affecting the development of the arcade physics and consequently (my) tournament physics.

If newcomers know that there is

"Arcade mode" (to choose from classic and Zen powers), and
"Hardcore mode" (practically current or Vol.4 tournament physics with 3 balls or extra balls to choose from) to play with

things would be more simple for anyone to understand what is what, and Zen would be more focused on developing each physics for the Williams tables -just 2-, instead of trying to balance between the various modes.

Practically now, Zen physics in Williams tables would receive the Classic Single Player - Arcade treatment, as the differences are very little since the Universal Pack (current arcade is very very slow and there are a lot of complaints about that)-thus becoming the new Arcade, so newcomers would love to experience and always know that they are playing "the real thing" of the "real tables" everytime -despite having extra powers or not-, essentialy freeing up "Hardcore mode" from the constraints of the current arcade, *with 3 or more balls, based on tournament setup, ball speed of Vol.3/4 or latest 5, Zen decides which is the closest to reality, with the flipper physics (slightly more stiff imo) & unpredictability as it was until Vol.4 before the nerf)

So instead of having (don't stick to naming at this point, it could be called "Challenge Mode"):

Single Player	Classic Single Player
	............./........\
	.......arcade...tournament

you would have:

Arcade Mode (Vol.5 arcade)	Hardcore Mode (*tweaked Vol.4/5 tournament)
..../.......\	..../........\
classic...Zen powers	3-balls...unlimited balls

This could satisfy both groups, and make them completely independent to develop, the latter could also be accompanied by wording like "for people that want to drive their skills to the next level", "be extra challenged" and such.

I really think this is the way to go on from now.

 

[DorkmasterFlek]

I disagree that the differences between "Classic" and "Zen" physics are very little, as someone who likes playing the Zen physics with powers. There is a noticeable difference, I don't want to get rid of the Zen physics option entirely.

 

[dwa40]

I don't see why since the Universal pack the physics changed. It was fine up to then with separate Zen and simulation like physics aka Arcade/Tournament mode. I don't see the point of recreating tables accurately which then play differently to the real thing. I hope vol 1-4 keep existing physics and alter Universal/Vol 5 to similar.

 

[HighFive]

Im going to push this even harder, i think the regular physics ( ball bouncing on posts, ball drain as example ) are different on IOS than on console, like on Switch. Got difficulty achieving a great score on IOS, and testing console with no powers , it seem way more easy.

And for god sake, for TOTAN, when we fight the genie, launching ball and doing flipper action on IOS is a pain in the ass. Hope they can add a button for auto launch, will make things easier a bit, cause its way harder compare to console with button push.

 

[Zaphod77]

Physics will ALWAYS be better on console or pc than on mobile, because of better timer resolution. touch screen controls are just not that precise in timing. FOr stuff to be even playable at all on mobile they have to cheat some.

Red vs black rubbers is a table by table decision whichever makes the table more difficult is what is used on tournament, and whatever the game ships with should be used for arcade. and yes, they act differently. i's not just cosmetic. they are different rubber materials.

as for unpredictability, when rng makes a shot literally impossible in digital pinball it SUCKS. There are always compromises. if there is no cheating at all, fairly often one frame is too early and one is too late. Without very clever tweaking you end up with something harder than real life.

when i did table layouts back in the day for vp, i did my best to make sure that shots that are supposed to be shot from a trap are actually hittable from one, and that shots that are supposed to be shot from after a ramp shot are shootable after a ramp shot. beyond that, i didn't bother to tweak.

it's really hard to get it to match real life in that regard. When i know i can make my shots better on the real life table than the sim, i get really frustrated with the sim.

 

[pinfan7]

The thing is there are differences in the ball physics even between the tables in Vol.5 so I really wonder if they are in a position to settle the "universal" standard for all tables at all.
Which are the "targeted" ones, those of TotAN and NGG which are similar to those of Volume's 4, WH2O and RS, (lighter, faster and more comfortable) or CV 's which is similar to UMP's MB, (heavier and slower) or the significantly heavier (not my cup of tea at all) CftBL?

 

[DorkmasterFlek]

Well aren't there always going to be differences between tables just depending on the "factory" setup of the table in question? I've certainly played tons of faster and slower tables IRL just due to table incline, flipper strength/condition, all that. Can you even set a universal standard for all tables?

 

[Pete]

I dont think it's something they can ever nail and say this is exactly what it is. If they gave us access to whatever adjustment variables that handle the fx3 ball physics I bet we would all argue about what settings are more real and never come to an agreed conclusion, also it would drive us all nuts ha. And yeah so many tables play so different due to so many factors, even the same exact table sometimes is all off from itself at another location. Even what people call floaty about TPA tables is something ive seen the ball act like on real tables, mostly older 60s-70s one's though. Especially if they use those plastic cover things, i dunno if they get sticky over time or what but the ball acts floaty on those things. You guys know what im talking about? it's like these clear plastic playfeild condoms they sell to protect your tables, only they make your table look bad and play all floaty lol. I'd say we are pretty lucky they got the physics so good on fx3, its never going to be really real but it's damn awesome and fun entertainment. For kicks I wouldn't mind if they added a beat up old broken down version of each table, that would actually be really cool. They could make the background room some grimy old dinner and replace that menu lady with Agitha the old angry waitress.

 

[shutyertrap]

For kicks I wouldn't mind if they added a beat up old broken down version of each table, that would actually be really cool. They could make the background room some grimy old dinner and replace that menu lady with Agitha the old angry waitress.

No need for that, as I've been in plenty of well lit, clean environments that had the most abused looking pins you could imagine. Even in "barcade" type locations, unless it's a new Stern, they often have tables that have obviously been on route for eons.

 

[DorkmasterFlek]

Yeah I have to say I don't think I'd care at all for a "broken down" version of the table in FX3. One of the main advantages with digital is consistent condition and not having to worry about that real world stuff when you just want to sit down and play a quick game of one of your favourite tables.