Williams' Collection Volume 5 impressions

[Citizen]

To me, the flippers feel better now but the ball movement has become too predictable. I would rather they keep continually refining all the physics than "locking in" imperfect physics.

This. People are acting like we're about to go past some invisible, unspoken point of no return with tweaks. We're nowhere near the FarSight rabbit hole yet. Giving it a few more packs to perfect them before applying them retroactively and locking them in wouldn't be the end of the world. I personally don't want us locked into UM/V5 physics. I agree with those who say the ball speed has been nerfed too much and that the newer tables are too predictable.

 

[Scared Stiff]

Well shoot. I came across yet another bug. This time on NGG. The ball drained quickly and it said hold on as if it was going to put the ball back in play, and then...nothing. I sat and watched the challenge timer count to zero with no ball on the entire playfield including plunger lane. (Sigh)

 

[Craig Grannell]

"We're nowhere near the FarSight rabbit hole yet”

Perhaps not, but I remain baffled by a company that cannot get a game like this working reasonably well on a top-of-the-line iPad. Perhaps they were too ambitious. Who knows? But either the game’s not been tested, or I’ve for some reason got a problem here with this one game, but performance is fine with everything else…

 

[Cloda]

If the two iterations of physics were tuned by the same developer (they weren't) and featured the exact same physical table (they aren't), you would have a point, but that isn't the case. The Zen physics are arguably the best commercial product video game pinball physics we have seen to date. Other than that, all I hear from people discussing the "iterations" is subjective. And until you strip away the need to render the physics engine at a few hundred frames per second which is then graphically rendered to screen at 60/120/etc and deal with input lag (which is the case in the video posted above) none of this matters. Either you can have fun playing a video game or not, but lets stop comparing (and expecting) 1:1 to a real pin.

I guess you won't be surprised to hear that I disagree with you on this point. The iterations of physics I'm talking about is between Vol 1-5, with Universal Monsters in-between. They have all been designed and tweaked by Deep from Zen studios so I don't know why you say it is not from the same developer. Zen has indicated what they have changed between each release with the most notable being the introduction of the flipper physics for Volume 4 and then the heavier ball (after Spacies Arcades "marble physics" video). I play this game a heck of a lot - only game I play - and I play maybe 1-2 hours a day late at night if I can get the kids settled in time and I'm not too tired. I have (or had last I played the table) Top 10 Classic Arcade scores on all the Williams tables I have played so far (still remaining are the new ones, Fish Tales, Black Rose, Safe Cracker, and The Champion Pub). I can tell you (or you can see for yourself as all my top games are on Youtube), exactly which flipper tricks I am able to do on each of the Volumes / UM, and what changed between them (in fact, I started another thread on that a couple of weeks ago). It was glaringly obvious to me when I started Creature of the Black Lagoon for the first time, that it is suddenly way too predictable relative to the previous Volume. On the extreme side we have Attack from Mars, where if you take your eyes off the flipper at the wrong time while the ball is still in motion, it is gone! On Creature, the ball dropping from the bumpers on the right flipper is so predictable in what it is going to do, that I can already start looking around what I'm going to do next, before I have even caught the ball... and I can do it for a long time. Up until Vol 4, that was not the case, and you had to work at bringing the ball under control. Now loosing the ball, is as a result of you loosing concentration, and not the game forcing you into it as can be expected from a machine set up to make money in an Arcade. So, I'm not expecting 1:1 to a real pin, but I have seen how Zen has moved closer and closer to the real deal from it playing way too difficult, and now they have actually started going into the opposite direction where it is beginning to play way too easy. Subjective perhaps, but I have put enough time and effort into this game to have good reasons to say what I'm saying. I can further, and I have done so, compare each of Zen's recreations with actual gameplay, and these differences and the shift between getting closer and then moving further away is also there to be seen.


Also, what the other guy is talking about, is the actual speed that the flipper drops after it starts moving, irrespective of when it actually start moving. The movement speed of the flipper returning to the rest position is sluggish. Nothing to do with lag in that case.

 

[trash80]

I guess you won't be surprised to hear that I disagree with you on this point. The iterations of physics I'm talking about is between Vol 1-5, with Universal Monsters in-between. They have all been designed and tweaked by Deep from Zen studios so I don't know why you say it is not from the same developer. Zen has indicated what they have changed between each release with the most notable being the introduction of the flipper physics for Volume 4 and then the heavier ball (after Spacies Arcades "marble physics" video). I play this game a heck of a lot - only game I play - and I play maybe 1-2 hours a day late at night if I can get the kids settled in time and I'm not too tired. I have (or had last I played the table) Top 10 Classic Arcade scores on all the Williams tables I have played so far (still remaining are the new ones, Fish Tales, Black Rose, Safe Cracker, and The Champion Pub). I can tell you (or you can see for yourself as all my top games are on Youtube), exactly which flipper tricks I am able to do on each of the Volumes / UM, and what changed between them (in fact, I started another thread on that a couple of weeks ago). It was glaringly obvious to me when I started Creature of the Black Lagoon for the first time, that it is suddenly way too predictable relative to the previous Volume. On the extreme side we have Attack from Mars, where if you take your eyes off the flipper at the wrong time while the ball is still in motion, it is gone! On Creature, the ball dropping from the bumpers on the right flipper is so predictable in what it is going to do, that I can already start looking around what I'm going to do next, before I have even caught the ball... and I can do it for a long time. Up until Vol 4, that was not the case, and you had to work at bringing the ball under control. Now loosing the ball, is as a result of you loosing concentration, and not the game forcing you into it as can be expected from a machine set up to make money in an Arcade. So, I'm not expecting 1:1 to a real pin, but I have seen how Zen has moved closer and closer to the real deal from it playing way too difficult, and now they have actually started going into the opposite direction where it is beginning to play way too easy. Subjective perhaps, but I have put enough time and effort into this game to have good reasons to say what I'm saying. I can further, and I have done so, compare each of Zen's recreations with actual gameplay, and these differences and the shift between getting closer and then moving further away is also there to be seen.


Also, what the other guy is talking about, is the actual speed that the flipper drops after it starts moving, irrespective of when it actually start moving. The movement speed of the flipper returning to the rest position is sluggish. Nothing to do with lag in that case.

I know you are talking about regarding iterations but you are also trying to make your point by comparing different tables. I also know Deep is head of Pinball FX development, however, what you may not know, is there are multiple table designers that are tuning the play and "physics" of each and every WMS table (Deep also happens to tune individual tables too). You can find out which designer has done which tables on other forums.

I agree that it would be nice to get a single set of overall flipper dynamics and ball weight across the Classic mode from Vol 1 through 5, but a lot of what you are describing is again, how the specific designer working on the specific table decided to tune the overall experience. Which boils down to their observation and subjective opinion of what the actual table in their studio played like, not the table you have played and/or video you have watched. And I'm sure you know, even two same game pins next to each other in real life will play differently (including flipper tricks).

 

[pinfan7]

I know you are talking about regarding iterations but you are also trying to make your point by comparing different tables. I also know Deep is head of Pinball FX development, however, what you may not know, is there are multiple table designers that are tuning the play and "physics" of each and every WMS table (Deep also happens to tune individual tables too). You can find out which designer has done which tables on other forums.

I agree that it would be nice to get a single set of overall flipper dynamics and ball weight across the Classic mode from Vol 1 through 5, but a lot of what you are describing is again, how the specific designer working on the specific table decided to tune the overall experience. Which boils down to their observation and subjective opinion of what the actual table in their studio played like, not the table you have played and/or video you have watched. And I'm sure you know, even two same game pins next to each other in real life will play differently (including flipper tricks).

And what you are saying practically proves that the process of "unifying" the physics for every table before UP can't be done (different designers, different tables, "insider info no one knows"... the usual arbitary "justifications" by people who want to deny-block constructive criticism, derail the discussion, etc), except... that is the plan actually in case you don't know and Akos, Deep, Jeno of Zen already have confirmed that in their twitch streams and everywhere, it was mentioned in the Blahcade podcasts as well numerous times, so what you are saying is wrong instead.

 

[Cloda]

I know you are talking about regarding iterations but you are also trying to make your point by comparing different tables. I also know Deep is head of Pinball FX development, however, what you may not know, is there are multiple table designers that are tuning the play and "physics" of each and every WMS table (Deep also happens to tune individual tables too). You can find out which designer has done which tables on other forums.

I agree that it would be nice to get a single set of overall flipper dynamics and ball weight across the Classic mode from Vol 1 through 5, but a lot of what you are describing is again, how the specific designer working on the specific table decided to tune the overall experience. Which boils down to their observation and subjective opinion of what the actual table in their studio played like, not the table you have played and/or video you have watched. And I'm sure you know, even two same game pins next to each other in real life will play differently (including flipper tricks).

I actually do know because there is a list of designers posted and updated by Akos on the Steam FX3 page and I've been following this closely since the beginning FX2. By the way, Deep has always been my favourite designer starting with Fantastic Four which is my favourite Marvel table (which I sadly don't play anymore). Take a look at what all he designed for Williams...

Peter "Deep" Grafl

Oct 9, 2018 New physics engine
Oct 9, 2018 ROM implementation of Fish Tales, Medieval Madness, The Getaway: High Speed II, Junk Yard
March 19, 2019 ROM implementation of Theatre of Magic, Champion Pub
May 28, 2019 ROM implementation of Hurricane, White Water
May 28, 2019 New flipper physics

They haven't updated it yet, but he designed one or both of the Universal Monsters tables (can't remember now and too lazy to watch the Twitch stream where they said), and he did Cirques Voltaire.

Looking at Zoltan Vari

Dec 4, 2018 ROM implementation of The Party Zone
May 28, 2019 ROM implementation of Red and Ted's Road Show

He now did Tales of the Arabian Nights and No Good Gophers.

They both thus designed tables in the three main iterations of the overall physics (Vol 1/2, Vol 4, Vol 5/UM).

So... back to what I tried to explain to you and that is that there are iterations of physics between the different packs and I'm talking about that, rather than the individual much smaller differences of the tables in a pack. You can take a look at this thread if you want to remind yourself as to what is different between each pack in terms of flipper tricks, ball speed, and weight. After writing that and thinking about it more, I realised the third, and probably most important component of the Classic Arcade nerfed trio, is that randomness / variability has been reduced.

In conclusion... there are vast noticeable, and observable, and even testable differences between the packs and Zen themselves have clearly said that they are looking at implementing a standard base set of physics across all the packs for now and forever. We now still have an opportunity to bring to their attention our concerns so that they can weight it up and then decide if what they now have is what they want to go forward with. Once the backward implementation and leaderboard resets have been done, it will pretty much be it (or at least until Pinball FX4 where increased processing power will presumably allow for more accurate physics implementation).

 

[trash80]

And what you are saying practically proves that the process of "unifying" the physics for every table before UP does not exist, or can't be done (different designers, different tables, arbitary "insider info no one knows"... the usual "justifications" by people who want to deny-block constructive criticism, derail the discussion, etc), except... that is the plan actually in case you don't know and Akos, Deep, Jeno of Zen already have confirmed that in their twitch streams and everywhere, in Blahcade podcasts as well numerous times, so what you are saying is wrong instead.

Are you suggesting that all the tables from 1 through 3 play identical? Cause they certainly don't.

No it isn't the "plan," and they never said that. Though only Deep out of that group has anything to do with development (Akos is not involved with Pinball FX anymore and is a marketing person, and Jeno is the new Pinball FX community manager). Deep has stated he is continuing to make adjustments to the underlying mechanics of certain features (flipper torque angle velocity, playfield friction, various material interaction parameters, etc.) and he HOPES that they can one day retrofit these adjustments to the previous releases, but that isn't his call. We've repeatedly heard that management doesn't want to do a leaderboard reset and that "physics" will not be altered with previously released packs unless a full reset takes place.

 

[Cloda]

Are you suggesting that all the tables from 1 through 3 play identical? Cause they certainly don't.

No it isn't the "plan," and they never said that. Though only Deep out of that group has anything to do with development (Akos is not involved with Pinball FX anymore and is a marketing person, and Jeno is the new Pinball FX community manager). Deep has stated he is continuing to make adjustments to the underlying mechanics of certain features (flipper torque angle velocity, playfield friction, various material interaction parameters, etc.) and he HOPES that they can one day retrofit these adjustments to the previous releases, but that isn't his call. We've repeatedly heard that management doesn't want to do a leaderboard reset and that "physics" will not be altered with previously released packs unless a full reset takes place.

Did you perhaps watch their release stream for Vol 5? Wait... let me quickly go and find it for you ;-)

 

[Captaincroutons]

Did you perhaps watch their release stream for Vol 5? Wait... let me quickly go and find it for you ;-)

You can’t argue with trash, as I just recently discovered. He isn’t interested in discussion, just thinks he knows everything. I’ve seen those podcasts too, so I know you’re right and he’s wrong. I -believe- Mel may have even confirmed they are going to redo the physics on old packs eventually, I may be wrong on that point though.

 

[pinfan7]

Are you suggesting that all the tables from 1 through 3 play identical? Cause they certainly don't.

Peter "Deep" Grafl:
Oct 9, 2018 New physics engine
May 28, 2019 New flipper physics

I toned down the tournament setup just a bit because I felt it a little too fast, too steep and there were many feedbacks from players saying it's too fast. When we will patch the newest flippers into previous volumes I will match all the tables settings. [...]

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No it isn't the "plan," and they never said that.

quoting November 2019, Universal Pack release:

Thanks Sorry it took this long to finally get there with the physics. I will try to implement it sooner rather than later to previous packs. The problem is the leaderboard question. Many users wouldn't be happy if we erase the scores but the gameplay would change considerably. We will try to come up with a solution.

Nice try, but can you please try harder?

Though only Deep out of that group has anything to do with development (Akos is not involved with Pinball FX anymore and is a marketing person, and Jeno is the new Pinball FX community manager).

lalala, I mentioned who has already mentioned that and not which role everyone has. Irrelevant comment.

Deep has stated he is continuing to make adjustments to the underlying mechanics of certain features (flipper torque angle velocity, playfield friction, various material interaction parameters, etc.) and he HOPES that they can one day retrofit these adjustments to the previous releases, but that isn't his call.

sorry your info is outdated, that was before the Universal Pack, and his latest post is above in bold.

We've repeatedly heard that management doesn't want to do a leaderboard reset and that "physics" will not be altered with previously released packs unless a full reset takes place.

The leaderboard reset (and most probable archiving of the old) will be simultaneous with the global physics pack that is going to replace the previous.

Now please, if you want to discuss something related to the

a) lost unpredictability of the tables with the Universal Pack and on,
b) the furhter nerf of the ball speed with the Universal Pack,
c) the improvement of the flippers recoil,
d) the direction of Zen physics and how to cover the 2 distinct player categories better without the one hurting the other, as it's more than prevalent that this happens with Universal Pack and Vol.5 be my guest,

otherwise I won't follow you in your denial and derailing efforts here anymore.

 

[trash80]

Did you perhaps watch their release stream for Vol 5? Wait... let me quickly go and find it for you ;-)

I have, and there isn't any new information there other than Deep stating that he will ask one of the coders about the Whitewater issue and numerous vague statements about having a bunch of fixes they want to do but don't have the time.

 

[Captaincroutons]

I have, and there isn't any new information there other than Deep stating that he will ask one of the coders about the Whitewater issue and numerous vague statements about having a bunch of fixes they want to do but don't have the time.

Roflol, you’re the donkey from family guy arguing that Kevin Bacon isn’t in Footloose.

 

[Cloda]

I have, and there isn't any new information there other than Deep stating that he will ask one of the coders about the Whitewater issue and numerous vague statements about having a bunch of fixes they want to do but don't have the time.

You didn't watch long enough it seems ;-)

 

[trash80]

You didn't watch long enough it seems ;-)

I watched the first hour or so, until they started Arabian Nights, is there really a groundbreaking announcement later in the stream? If so, I'll go check it out again.

 

[Cloda]

I watched the first hour or so, until they started Arabian Nights, is there really a groundbreaking announcement later in the stream? If so, I'll go check it out again.

You stopped just before the update...

They are pushing for it because of the positive feedback received on Universal Monsters. It is not a done deal, but there is a high likelihood that it is going to happen.

Anyway, for me it is a good think that it is not happening yet, as there is a better chance that they will not lock the physics in before they have tweaked it further.

I'm basically done now with this conversation with you. I did my best to politely give you detailed answers and to explain myself better. I don't feel the need or the inclination to explain myself further to you so... have a nice day ;-)

 

[trash80]

Peter "Deep" Grafl:
Oct 9, 2018 New physics engine
May 28, 2019 New flipper physics


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



quoting November 2019, Universal Pack release:



Nice try, but can you please try harder?



lalala, I mentioned who has already mentioned that and not which role everyone has. Irrelevant comment.



sorry your info is outdated, that was before the Universal Pack, and his latest post is above in bold.



The leaderboard reset (and most probable archiving of the old) will be simultaneous with the global physics pack that is going to replace the previous.

Now please, if you want to discuss something related to the

a) lost unpredictability of the tables with the Universal Pack and on,
b) the furhter nerf of the ball speed with the Universal Pack,
c) the improvement of the flippers recoil,
d) the direction of Zen physics and how to cover the 2 distinct player categories better without the one hurting the other, as it's more than prevalent that this happens with Universal Pack and Vol.5 be my guest,

otherwise I won't follow you in your denial and derailing efforts here anymore.

I'm very well aware of the current physics situation as it relates to what Deep has done and have posted on the various changes we saw from 1-3, 4 and UP/Vol5 a few times elsewhere. This discussion was initially about what some dude thought of the Monsters Bash physics as compared to his real life Monsters Bash and Stern The Munsters pinball tables, and why attempting to compare the video game to a real pin and expect them to behave identical is a going to result in disappointment.

 

[trash80]

You stopped just before the update...

They are pushing for it because of the positive feedback received on Universal Monsters. It is not a done deal, but there is a high likelihood that it is going to happen.

Anyway, for me it is a good think that it is not happening yet, as there is a better chance that they will not lock the physics in before they have tweaked it further.

I'm basically done now with this conversation with you. I did my best to politely give you detailed answers and to explain myself better. I don't feel the need or the inclination to explain myself further to you so... have a nice day ;-)

Akos literally says "Not yet, we are hoping it will happen, we are pushing it." and while it seems that it is manageable for Deep to push this out to the previous packs, Deep states "I'm am using every tool I have..."

Look, I'd love to see a unified package, but as I have stated elsewhere, I find it more likely to happen with the next version of Pinball FX... and since I have my speculation hat on, elsewhere in the stream I might think that something was said to lead me to hope for a Pinbot multi-table pack in the near future.

 

[PinJimmy]

Ye I agree with you there, they will probably unified the physics in FX4. They not doing it now cause of the leaderboards. With Fx4 they will probably introduce the new lighting engine aswell. So until then there is no reason not to keep improving the physics if necessary.

 

[ZREXMike2]

NGG is cool, seems harder than the TPA version. TOTAN is good too, just seems like some colors are just a little faded. Have not tried CV yet.