Williams Pinball App Discussion

[Gorgias32]

After grinding all afternoon and evening and getting NO table parts for the new tables, this morning woke up to an app update on Android and now after playing four times through the level one challenges, I have two parts for ToM and two parts for Safe Cracker, and that's it.

There has been a lot of talk about this before, but I had hoped that Zen would have done something about it. The bottom line is, as more tables are added, the "spreading thin" of table parts is going to make it prohibitive for new users. At this point I'm guessing that by the end of the day I MAY have one of the three unlocked to the point that I can randomly (1 in 8 times?) see it in the level 1 daily challenge. I'm discouraged with the fact that the tables are downloaded to my phone but I'm possibly looking at a week of grinding before I can even hit start on any of them. And this is just going to keep getting worse as more tables come out. I really can't imagine how much of a turnoff it will be to a new user who downloads the app a year from now when there are 20+ tables.

I have a couple of suggestions/requests for Zen to consider, both of which have been discussed before in the forums and on the podcast:

1. PLEASE add a "trial mode" for all tables - this could be launched from the Arcade Play menu. The shortest possible one would probably be the 5 star one-ball challenge, but you could do a time limited 1 minute game too like on Steam if the technology supports it. As suggested by Jared and Chris in the podcast, this could also be a launching point to let people see/try the pro physics and graphical enhancements so they could decide if they want to upgrade/purchase.
2. PLEASE let us focus our table parts collecting! In my grinding after the new tables have come out, I have gotten more MM and Fish Tales parts that I don't need, and precious few parts for the new tables.

Another option would be to just allow ALL tables to appear in level 1 challenges, without the 5 table part unlock.

In any case, at this point one day in, I'm feeling like this release is proving that the model in Mobile has some serious flaws.

 

[shutyertrap]

My requirements for upgrading are now in line with what I've seen posted, after having been able to max out all 7 tables in the first 16 days on iOS. So now I'm going to try and keep tabs on what it'll take to max out these 3 new tables, hopefully before the next volume drops. Here's where I'm starting from after messing around with a couple daily challenges to see where I stood...

Level: 22
Total Tix: 16,040
Total Zen Coins: 51
ToM Parts: 10/15 for 2 stars
CP Parts: 2/15 for 2 stars
SC Parts: 4/5 for 1 star

I have all 4 daily challenges available to me. I have only been earning parts for the 3 new tables since the others are fully upgraded. Interestingly enough, I just did the first 5 stars of the Premium Challenge and only had 2 of the 3 free card flips available, earning no table parts. That's something else I'll be keeping tabs on, as prior to this latest release and after maxing all the tables, this was the case for me with all the challenges.

One thing I won't be doing anymore now that I hear it takes 100 Zen coin to upgrade, is spending the single coin for that last card flip. I had been doing that previously because 1) it usually had a table part behind it, and 2) the cost for 4 star upgrade was only 10 coins. The most coins I ever had at one time was 150, so this is going to be a real challenge to earn enough. I've completed 2 daily challenges so far, and each yielded 1 coin. Does that mean 4 coins per day? Which would mean a max of 120 coins per month, but if Zen plans on releasing a new pack every 6-8 weeks, at best you'd be able to unlock 2 of the 3 tables before 3 more got added in. We've already heard people say they still earn parts for tables they have enough parts for but haven't been able to pay for the final upgrade, so yeah. Let's not even bother with worst case scenario!

 

[MBeeching]

Grade 2 Part progress - Table Pack 3
CP - 7/15
SC - 9/15
TOM - 3/15

Played for roughly six hours but I keep receiving parts I neither want nor require (relentless Junk Yard challenges and parts - argh!).
I used to get part drops after watching adverts but now it's usually cosmetics or tickets, perhaps the occasional Zen coin at 15 stars.

 

[Gorgias32]

Ok, I may have been a little negative, by the end of the day yesterday (had to have reset the basic challenge at least 10 times) I had gotten six parts each for Safe Cracker and Champion Pub, and 2 for ToM, so I was able to upgrade SC and CP to level 1 and got a survival challenge for Safe Cracker to come up this morning. I still think it's going to be unsustainable to keep this random distribution model long-term with new users coming on board when there are a lot of tables in the app.

Another option Zen could do with the table parts is to have an "exchange" in-game where you could trade in your extra parts for ones that you needed, at a 2-for-1 rate or something - other games have done this, like Gumballs & Dungeons, there are some really common gumball parts that you collect a ton of, and there's an exchange area where you can trade them in for rarer ones.

 

[Fungi]

Yeah. I figured it was gonna take me forever to attain 300 "zennys" and just dropped the $9.99

 

[MBeeching]

Another option Zen could do with the table parts is to have an "exchange" in-game where you could trade in your extra parts for ones that you needed, at a 2-for-1 rate or something - other games have done this, like Gumballs & Dungeons, there are some really common gumball parts that you collect a ton of, and there's an exchange area where you can trade them in for rarer ones.

I like the idea of an exchange / crafting system, I'd even take 3 for 1 if I could choose specific parts.

 

[wilbers]

Looks like the technology is just about there for handheld (light) gaming PC's, only that its currently very expensive. Give it 4 years and it might become more viable and then can just play on Steam and not need to worry about the grind on mobile.

https://www.smachz.com/shop/

 

[MadScience2006]

Yeah. I figured it was gonna take me forever to attain 300 "zennys" and just dropped the $9.99

Same here.

I grind tool steel at work...that's more than enough grinding for me.

 

[DA5ID]

On iOS it’s 50 table parts and 3000 tickets to unlock the 3rd star, I am not looking forward to finding out what the 4 star requirement is. Leveling up only gives out 1 zen coin. I have the purchase outright option counting down and I have to make a decision.
Gotta say the grinding is no longer fun and I’m just going to pay the money.

 

[MBeeching]

On iOS it’s 50 table parts and 3000 tickets to unlock the 3rd star, I am not looking forward to finding out what the 4 star requirement is. Leveling up only gives out 1 zen coin. I have the purchase outright option counting down and I have to make a decision.
Gotta say the grinding is no longer fun and I’m just going to pay the money.

Grade 4 is 100 parts / 100 coins - I've got most of those parts though I'll never earn enough coins. I honestly think Grade 2 is sufficient unless you really need the offline play. I've unlocked features instead (visual extras / pro difficulty) and have only upgraded a few of my favourite tables to Grade 3 so they're added to Pro Challenge rotation.

If there are better offers at a later date I'd certainly consider buying them outright, alternatively I could spend £18.99 on 800 coins and unlock specific tables for £2.37 each.

 

[Pete]

The whole things is a confusing mess. So i think i just figured out to myself that resetting a daily objective is a good thing because it just cost a little tickets which you get back from doing the challenges over anyway, the warning when going to reset had me think they would take away my rewards. I hate this format so much, its the format that gets me so addicted i play obsessivly for a month and then get sick of it all and never touch it again. Like those stupid tap games. You burn yourself out on them and then hate them. Not sure i can hate pinball but its gonna make me hate the grind pretty soon

 

[1adam12]

The whole things is a confusing mess. So i think i just figured out to myself that resetting a daily objective is a good thing because it just cost a little tickets which you get back from doing the challenges over anyway, the warning when going to reset had me think they would take away my rewards. I hate this format so much, its the format that gets me so addicted i play obsessivly for a month and then get sick of it all and never touch it again. Like those stupid tap games. You burn yourself out on them and then hate them. Not sure i can hate pinball but its gonna make me hate the grind pretty soon

I hate it so much I play about once or twice a week. I'll do one daily challenge and that's it.

I was never impressed with old Zen games (the themes we're cool, but I never enjoyed their "physics") but as a company I've lost all respect for them with this model.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

 

[Pete]

oh and when you mess up and drain very early in the 1 ball challenge and then have to wait for menus to load tap the button wait tap the button and then rewatch another 30 second commercial... and then you mess it up again right after the ball saver goes away... ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! way to piss everyone right off zen. liked it on PC when there was no bull****... I hate one ball challenge now.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

My biggest problem is Safecracker. Here's a table that isn't really about score, it's about getting to the board game and winning a token. Scoring is secondary. At the very least, suspend the timer during the board game - it's ridiculous it runs then. Better still, accidentally delete it forever and accidentally pour a gallon of petrol on the physical table and accidentally drop a match on it.

 

[Gorgias32]

I find the one-ball challenges generally the most satisfying to finish, because they are so hard. The felling when you are at 4 stars and halfway to the next points goal, and have the ball cradled, is really great - then you either hit your shot and win, or you brick it and drain, but either way it's a real authentic pinball adrenaline rush.

But with the one-ball challenges, it's not unusual that I don't bother going past the 5 star level, I may try 10 stars once or twice, but it's so hard as to be discouraging, especially at level 2 or 3 with the harder physics and higher point goals (and the higher cost of entry).

 

[shutyertrap]

Because I want to separate 'feelings' from 'facts', but don't want to clog up this thread, you all might be interested in this...

http://www.digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/13993-Williams-Pinball-App-Data-Collection?p=284925#post284925

I'm going to start tracking data for everything collected as well as see if any patterns can be devised within the Daily Challenges. Check it out, lemme know in that thread if I'm skipping anything or what.

 

[Pete]

Okay so day 3 of me using the app now, been playing the pc and ps4 versions since they came out. 3 days of grinding a total of over 15 hours and im still playing just the one table i picked in the begining which is attack from mars. I give up. This was clearly designed to frustrate the crap out of me. Seem to have a bunch of parts for every table but no level two so cant play anything other than AFM. All these ads i have to watch over and over for messed up 1 balls are just the icing on the cake of why im never touching this spam garbage crap again. I would rather eat the rotten ******* of a road kill skunk

 

[shutyertrap]

Pete, you're clearly an example of what will happen to anyone who just gets the app now, with 10+ tables here on out. An inordinate amount of time spent on one table and only one daily challenge option. In stark contrast, I started this Volume 3 cycle with the other 7 tables maxed and 4 challenges available to me. Within 2 days I had the 3 new tables to 2 stars each. So if someone were to buy the "1 time offer" that is popping up to buy the tables outright, they'd no longer be behind the eight ball for future releases. I know that's not helping you, but just sayin'.

The funny part is once I maxed those tables, I stopped playing the app. I'd much rather play on PC, the iPhone is just something to kill the time with. In a strange sort of way, I'm enjoying the grind for these new tables because it is the reason for me to play.

 

[Citizen]

Just sayin' is fine and all but,

Pete, you're clearly an example of what will happen to anyone who just gets the app now, with 10+ tables here on out. An inordinate amount of time spent on one table and only one daily challenge option.

it also highlights a pretty serious problem with the model that will only get worse over time. At this point in the mobile Williams app's life cycle, it's still mostly only people who are savvy to digital pinball who have jumped on board. And with only 10 tables to unlock, it's already proven to be divisive even among the people who are essentially the most dedicated cross section of the digital pinball fanbase.

How well will the app fare even a year from now, when the game will have perhaps 28 or so tables, when the new players hopping on board then see what a monumental task lies ahead of them? This model is essentially ensuring that most of those people a year from now will feel like Zen is just strong-arming them to purchase the tables with Zen Coin packs/limited-time offers that are disproportionately expensive compared to console/PC. I mean, catching up with the limited-time offers now when there are only 3 packs is one thing, but what about when "catching up" means having to overpay for 9 packs? And at that point, when faced with the impossibility of keeping up versus the price discrepancy between versions, how many will choose to either stick to PC/consoles, or, even worse, to simply walk away altogether (especially if mobile is the only platform they wanted)?

And that's just a year. Does Zen still want to be getting new mobile players 2 or 3 years from now? Because imagine what it'll look like to someone new by then if Zen doesn't restructure either the f2p model or add normal pack purchasing options with better prices.

I'm just worried that Zen has this set up to fail down the road, and I don't want to see Zen fail, especially not with any venture related to WMS.

 

[shutyertrap]

I absolutely agree that things are only going to get worse as more tables are added. I certainly don't want to be all la-di-da about this, but I also have to say I'm actually enjoying the app. A reasonable solution needs to be found which is yet another reason why I'm tracking my stats as mentioned above. The reality is that Zen is not going to change the currency structure of this app, but they do have to recognize its failings. I've played other apps with collecting of parts and coins and gems, that faced this exact problem of too many variables to collect for. The solution was never to change the pricing, but to change how collecting was done. With that in mind, and some of this has been expressed in other threads and even in our podcast, these are ideas I think could work...

- have the user select a Volume pack at the start. They will only collect parts for those tables. When all 3 tables have been upgraded to the next star amount, ask the user if they'd like to keep collecting for that pack or switch to another. This happens each upgrade level, but only when all 3 tables are there.

PRO: smaller pool to collect for, puts user more in control
CON: doesn't fix issue of collecting tickets and coins; Daily Challenge options would be severely hampered.

- either increase the amount of stuff collected with card flips or lower the upgrade requirements

PRO: faster collecting, will be able to get to 2 star level much easier which will open up Intermediate Daily Challenge for more tables which will in turn give more cards to flip (this was what it was like for me at start of iOS launch)
CON: progressively doesn't fix the problem the more tables get added, eventually puts new users in essentially same position current users are now

- once maximum amount of table parts are earned, upgraded or not, those parts will no longer be earned

PRO: no wasted rewards
CON: you'll never be able to earn enough parts to max out before a new pack lands, thus diluting the pool yet again.

- create clans, and within those clans you are able to trade or donate parts. Additionally have clan events that allow for even more collecting opportunities.

PRO: clans! You'd be able to really focus in on one table you want parts for more than others, while helping someone else out reaching their goal. Earning as a clan in events helps the whole collective, rather than solely going it alone
CON: can get super competitive, joining clans can be an issue, running clans can be quite divisive. Zen would have to figure out and balance an entire clan system


I don't think any one of these solutions on their own is the answer. I personally would love a clan system put in place, and then have match battles between clans via cycled challenges. Competition is a key component of pinball, this would be a great way of introducing it. Would be a great place to have players use the pro physics too. Mix in the capped collecting, earning tickets for donating parts, and ease up a bit on upgrade requirements, something more workable starts to emerge.

We used to stress that when discussing FarSight, constructive criticism was best. I encourage the same for what to do with the Williams App. Calling it names, declaring it a travesty, demanding they scrap the entire business model, these don't help in any way. Zen already sorta compromised by at least offering the limited time pack. You may ask for that price to be there permanently, which is understandable, but that doesn't fix the issue for people that don't want to pay anything and are fine with grinding (the majority of casual mobile app users, by the way). Is it fare of me to ask we as a forum move forward in that direction?