Wow... I had no idea how important nudging is.

[mmmagnetic]

Okay, so I got quite a bit tired of playing TPA on my iPad - that thing gets pretty heavy in my hands, and there is always this ergonomic problem of either having to hold it up to my face, which stresses my hands and arms, or having it lying down somewhere, which usually means it's terrible for my neck.

I've also been quickly developing an even greater crush on Pat Lawlors tables - I loved Whirlwind even on the rather junky 3DS PHOF port, and I badly wanted a pretty version of it that runs with at least a bit more frames per second than your usual Powerpoint presentation. I've also been lusting after No Good Gofers, and the console version of RBION has enough contrast between the lights and the playfield that I can actually tell what's going on and where to shoot, so I finally got a 360.

And man, I had no idea.

I was kind of defending touch controls here, but after two days of intense sessions on the 360 pad, I tried TPA on my iPad again, and it felt borderline unplayable. I had the feeling that it would be weird going back, but boy, the difference was jarring.

And the biggest factor was not the nice, juicy, satisfying feeling of slamming the bumper buttons on the pad instead of tapping a thin piece of glass and metal - but I suddenly understood how crucial nudging is. I always never get to play real pinball, and when I do it had never crossed my mind to slam these machines around, but at least in TPA/Williams Collection, nudging feels as much a part of the game as the flippers.

As a result, I suddenly started liking ToTAN a whole lot more than on iOS. On iOS, I often drained so quickly that I would very rarely get these nice lamp bonus countdowns (I really love that little jingle!). On the gamepad, it's hardcore nudge city, and suddenly the game feels not only more involving, but also more physical - the sounds on TPA aren't really impressive compared to the loud, slamming clacks I often hear in the PAPA videos, but the nudging sound is very nice. Whoop, creak, bang! Like a wooden ship on a stormy sea, on the verge of falling apart.

Sorry, I'm sure that isn't exactly news to a lot of you, but I just wanted to share

 

[Stormchild]

I think the biggest problem with nudging on the iPad is that it's an all-or-nothing proposition (at least, it seems to be — correct me if I'm wrong). It'd be fine if it would react to how hard you bump the iPad, but as far as I can tell, there's a minimum amount of accelerometer shake required to trigger it (which is quite high, meaning you have to bump it pretty hard), and the "nudge" you get is more of a violent shake (so it's not really a "nudge" at all). It's very difficult to use it successfully, and I honestly can't even tell if it's nudging in the right direction. Bumping the left side of the iPad should be the same as bumping the left side of a real table's cabinet (wherein the ball moves left because you've effectively pushed the playfield to the right); since I have to shake the iPad pretty violently just to trigger it, it's hard to judge what's actually happening. Furthermore, this tends to trigger tilt warnings, which a gentle nudge would never do unless the table's tilt sensitivity is set abnormally high. Wasting a warning (you only get so many before it tilts) on a routine nudge isn't really worth it in most cases, so I tend to just not bother.

So yes, nudging is really important. I think it could be made more usable on the iPad, but in its current state, it really isn't. And touch-to-nudge is borderline useless, since you have to take your hands off the flipper "buttons" and awkwardly change your grip on the iPad to do it (good luck doing all that in a split second). Would be nice if there was a user-configurable sensitivity that could be lowered to give more control over the degree of nudge (at the cost of having to hold the iPad more carefully). This would be a worthwhile tradeoff to me. Bumping the sides of the iPad in the same way you'd bump an actual cabinet seems so natural and obvious to me that I suspect it must be harder to implement than it seems, otherwise you'd expect it would just work that way by default.

 

[Fungi]

Someone in this forum suggested a while ago to use the swipe motion for nudging. I thought that was a brilliant idea and apparently so did FarSight. You could just leave your thumbs where they are and just slide them when you need to, and in the appropriate strength and direction.

Unfortunately, FarSight's implementation of "swipe to nudge" still requires one to swipe above the imaginary half-way line, thus rendering it pointless. I love this project to death, but sometimes, I just shake my head.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Nudging is very important, but just don't over-do it. Sometimes if you nudge when the ball is getting close to an outlane, it can bounce up against the outside of the sling post and then bounce back straight into the outlane and down it so quickly that you don't have time to nudge again. This happens to me on a fairly regular basis. Timing is everything, and that's one part of nudging I still need to improve upon.

 

[Supermans]

Someone in this forum suggested a while ago to use the swipe motion for nudging. I thought that was a brilliant idea and apparently so did FarSight. You could just leave your thumbs where they are and just slide them when you need to, and in the appropriate strength and direction.

Unfortunately, FarSight's implementation of "swipe to nudge" still requires one to swipe above the imaginary half-way line, thus rendering it pointless. I love this project to death, but sometimes, I just shake my head.

Yeah, swipe to nudge should be anywhere on the screen. And this imaginery halfway line is dumb. There really shouldn't be a halfway line at all. Just divide up the flippers to left and right down the middle of the ipad, same with swiping. Easy as pie.

 

[Jan Duin]

The PS3 uses the left analog stick for nudging and this works very well.
The trick to succesfull nudging is to recognize and predict the ball's path and nudge it before it hits an object which changes it's path into the outlane/the middle. When the ball is already heading towards the outlane it's often impossible to nudge and change it's path.

 

[BonzoGonzo]

may i suggest that you don't only nudge when trying to save the ball from draining (center or the outlanes), but also to set your shoots up in advance...

for example: when the ball returns from the left/right loop you nudge it so, that it avoids the left/right slingshot above the left/right flipper, and comes down on your left/rigth flipper instead... if necessariy of course

 

[Matt McIrvin]

The PS3 uses the left analog stick for nudging and this works very well.
The trick to succesfull nudging is to recognize and predict the ball's path and nudge it before it hits an object which changes it's path into the outlane/the middle. When the ball is already heading towards the outlane it's often impossible to nudge and change it's path.

The XBox 360 version has stick control too, but for some reason it's hard for me to wrap my head around it.

I actually liked the version of accelerometer nudging used by PHoF on the Wii. So I usually have the Android version set to shake control, since I just can't get the hang of swiping above the centerline.

The need for lead time means that useful nudging is part of learning a specific table. I can't say I've ever been that good at it.

 

[Tabe]

I'm aware of how important nudging is yet I can't seem to do it Or, rather, I don't seem to react fast enough or do it when I know I should. Or like I don't even think of it. If I could somehow grasp that concept, I could take my game to a new level, I think.

Tabe

 

[Matt McIrvin]

I'm aware of how important nudging is yet I can't seem to do it Or, rather, I don't seem to react fast enough or do it when I know I should. Or like I don't even think of it. If I could somehow grasp that concept, I could take my game to a new level, I think.

Yeah, the problem is that by the time it's obvious that you needed to do it, it's far too late. The key is learning the particular situations where a drain is going to happen if you don't nudge. And also when you shouldn't. Half the time, I nudge the ball into a SDTM.

 

[Nik Barbour]

On the 360, can nudging be set to the analogue triggers whilst using shoulder buttons for flippers?
And if yes are they the right way round (eg right trigger is like nudging rh side of the table)?

 

[Jeff Strong]

No I don't think you can change the nudging to anything except the stick.....but the stick is better because you can nudge up too.

 

[bavelb]

On the 360, can nudging be set to the analogue triggers whilst using shoulder buttons for flippers?
And if yes are they the right way round (eg right trigger is like nudging rh side of the table)?

No but it's better on the stick so you don't have to get your fingers off the flippers. Its the left stick btw, but I find it completely natural once you get used to nudging in and of itself.

 

[Nik Barbour]

Cool, hadn't thought about nudge up!
Thanks guys!
Can't wait for Wednesday now when I finally get my hands on it.
Got 2900 MS points on standby too for all the DLC backlog.
Should see me through to dlc #5!

 

[Fungi]

Cool, hadn't thought about nudge up!

Hah! Apparently neither did the iOS/android guys!

 

[esp2000]

Yeah, swipe to nudge should be anywhere on the screen. And this imaginery halfway line is dumb. There really shouldn't be a halfway line at all. Just divide up the flippers to left and right down the middle of the ipad, same with swiping. Easy as pie.

I agree that you should be able to swipe anywhere. I have big thumbs and I feel that I am blocking too much from my view trying to keep them halfway up the screen.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

No I don't think you can change the nudging to anything except the stick.....but the stick is better because you can nudge up too.

Not only straight up, but diagonally up too, which is the proper way of escaping CV's outlanes.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

I can say from experience that gestural interfaces where the same user action could potentially mean more than one thing are hard to get right.

The existing design probably came from a desire to separate the flip and nudge gestures. You want to be able to nudge without also operating the flipper, and the flipper handling can't wait to see whether you're swiping the screen or not once it gets a "thumb down" event.

On the other hand, I don't see much harm in allowing nudges from swiping in the same are where you trigger the flipper. After all, on a real machine, you can operate the flipper and slam the cabinet sideways at the same time.

Some fine-tuning of swipe detection might be necessary to avoid accidental nudges from a flip that registers as a simultaneous swipe.

I do think there needs to be a "nudge but don't flip" zone somewhere up the screen. Halfway is probably too far.

 

[Nik Barbour]

Hah! Apparently neither did the iOS/android guys!

Sorry - wasn't clear - meant I was used to Android not having nudge up, so thought xbox wouldn't either.
I suggested on another thread about pressing both android nudges simultaneously for a nudge up.

 

[Fungi]

Sorry - wasn't clear - meant I was used to Android not having nudge up, so thought xbox wouldn't either.
I suggested on another thread about pressing both android nudges simultaneously for a nudge up.

I knew what you meant.