Zen & Stern collaboration teaser?

[kimkom]

I'm happy with all the Williams/Bally tables so far but if this means that we have more tables coming such as The Simpsons Pinball Party, Tron Legacy, Ripley's then exciting times are ahead! Or perhaps even the newer Sterns? Wow.

I do hope that Zen are not making the same mistakes that Farsight made, by spreading themselves too thinly.

I don't play on mobile but from everything I'm reading, I'm already wishing they would just concentrate on consoles and PC. Add even more tables into the mix then things could quickly start to turn sour, unless Zen significantly invest more resources into the pinball department and shift focus away from stuff like Operencia.

Any decline in established standards would be a sure fire killer, especially for customers who already followed Farsight.

 

[Citizen]

you cant even fanboy out and pretend thats not true no matter how much you love what farsight did.

You'd be surprised how many people I still see on Facebook claiming that TPA has better (some of them even explicitly say "more realistic") physics.

Some people don't know better. And some people just hate Zen's new physics because they're terrible at pinball and the FX3 Williams tables are harder.

 

[Firefox2000]

^^I thought i was a pinball master via PA for all these years, then i recently bought and played the Zen version of some of those tables, i crawled away a broken but a more learned man. lol

 

[kimkom]

You'd be surprised how many people I still see on Facebook claiming that TPA has better (some of them even explicitly say "more realistic") physics.

I'm not surprised at all. Facebook is full of juveniles

 

[Nomorestalker]

I do hope that Zen are not making the same mistakes that Farsight made, by spreading themselves too thinly.


Any decline in established standards would be a sure fire killer, especially for customers who already followed Farsight.

They've said publicly that they'd scale up the pinball division if demand required it. Im not worried about it, if done right it's a cash cow.

 

[kimkom]

They've said publicly that they'd scale up the pinball division if demand required it. Im not worried about it, if done right it's a cash cow.

Mel has said as much, that's true. Let's just hope it's done right this time.

I really can't wait to add to my collection of emulated tables in PFX but I hope Zen can keep pushing the bar higher in terms of standards, as well as producing tables from other manufacturers.

Any Stern licensed tables my well follow the first batch of licensed Williams tables, once Zen have fully gauged interest and potential ROI.

 

[Citizen]

Makes me wonder that if Zen starts adding Sterns, if they'll do a 3-pack of High Roller Casino, Sharkey's Shootout and Grand Prix at some point. Being that those and the awful Striker Xtreme are the only unlicensed modern Sterns.

 

[kimkom]

To be honest, I'd see very little appeal with those tables on the mass market these days.

Sure, all us forum regulars might want them but I really think Zen need to be aiming for the big hitting licensed tables that can capture a much broader audience. And personally, I'd much rather Zen went that route too.

 

[Nomorestalker]

You gotta mix those with a heavy hitter, if there was a deadpool, high roller and grand prix guess what I'm excited to have those two. But as I've echoed on here, I want EVERYTHING all era's styles etc. But I really want to see Radical and riverboat gambler (off stern topic of course) and I really only want riverboat gambler because of that absolutely terrible song.

 

[msilcommand]

They've said publicly that they'd scale up the pinball division if demand required it. Im not worried about it, if done right it's a cash cow.

Digital pinball is not a cash cow when you're paying for emulation licenses. Scaling up for more volume just means cutting into revenues. Then you become farsight.

They need to keep making original tables too, licensed or Zen. That was the bread and butter that made them pretty much the only digital pinball company in history that has been profitable enough to last as long as they have.

Add to that the fact that they have no real competition to speak of anymore, and you have the potential for them to tank, hard.

 

[switch3flip]

Ball physics are great and everything looks bright and shiny but flipper physics are lacking severely. Drop catching and live catching is a little too easy in tpa but at least its there. My approach IRL is stop and go, it's infinitely easier IRL compared to zen williams. Funny thing is that steeper angled pins IRL make it eaven easier to catch ball. Obviously not in zen williams. The flippers are the heart of pinball for me, and zen need to improve before they get a pass from me at least.

 

[shutyertrap]

The flippers are the heart of pinball for me, and zen need to improve before they get a pass from me at least.

Funny you should mention that...[REDACTED]

 

[msilcommand]

Ball physics are great and everything looks bright and shiny but flipper physics are lacking severely. Drop catching and live catching is a little too easy in tpa but at least its there. My approach IRL is stop and go, it's infinitely easier IRL compared to zen williams. Funny thing is that steeper angled pins IRL make it eaven easier to catch ball. Obviously not in zen williams. The flippers are the heart of pinball for me, and zen need to improve before they get a pass from me at least.

I see it as a red flag when a company is saying we're gonna be pumping out tables every X amount of months, yet they haven't even completely sussed out the base core physics for emulated table play.

Add to that the fact that the bread and butter that kept them thriving so long were their original tables (licensed or zen), which they seem to have sidelined in favor of the rabbit hole of licensed emulation. Also add in the fact that they are stretching themselves thin with trying to support mobile, which I doubt is very lucrative, and VR, which may be lucrative in 5-10 more years somehow?

I'm just not seeing how this ISN'T a recipe for financial decline. It's not like making licensed emulated tables is going to magically dramatically boost their revenue. So, it comes down to whether or not making licensed emulated tables costs them significantly more than what it was costing them to make licensed originals and ZEN originals, because I seriously doubt they will be making much more money off the Williams and Stern tables than they were off of their original stuff.

 

[shutyertrap]

I see it as a red flag when a company is saying we're gonna be pumping out tables every X amount of months, yet they haven't even completely sussed out the base core physics for emulated table play.

Add to that the fact that the bread and butter that kept them thriving so long were their original tables (licensed or zen), which they seem to have sidelined in favor of the rabbit hole of licensed emulation. Also add in the fact that they are stretching themselves thin with trying to support mobile, which I doubt is very lucrative; VR, which may be lucrative in 5-10 more years somehow?

I'm just not seeing how this ISN'T a recipe for financial decline. It's not like making licensed emulated tables is going to magically dramatically boost their revenue. So, it comes down to whether or not making licensed emulated tables costs them significantly more than what it was costing them to make licensed originals and ZEN originals.

They have an entire division devoted to mobile gaming. Mobile is not taking away from the pinball division, they are separate but then share when needed. I'll see if I can dig up some more info about this to maybe ease your mind. Also, Zen has data from all the other mobile pinball apps they've put out, and I'm sure if it wasn't lucrative, they wouldn't have made it such a priority to have a mobile release as quick as they did. Lord knows they've been collecting just from me with all the video ads I've had to watch while playing the daily challenges.

I don't get how you think a licensed original table is more bread and butter than an emulated table. Do you have any idea how many more people the Williams tables have brought to the Zen platform? When someone found the download numbers of games on Steam a while back, TPA had over half a million original downloads compared to Zen's 60+ grand. People in this very forum that hated Zen originals in FX2 have said that they not only bought the new Williams stuff, but have been selectively buying originals now too within FX3. You hook people with the nostalgia, and then sell that back catalog!

It will be trickier for profits when it comes to licensed Williams stuff, same as if they do indeed get Stern, but not if they run with the idea of using the license further to make original tables to go along with those.

Worrying about Zen expanding and not having proper competition is like people that worried when Amazon was going to sell more than books. They expanded to meet and create demand, and then expanded to create even more demand. So long as a company is willing to reinvest, it's all good. Zen has stated and proven they'll do just that. After all, when TPA first came on the scene, Zen was about the same size studio. They now dwarf FarSight 5:1 with employees.

Also, regarding core physics still being tweaked...Zen had them 97% dialed in as far as I was concerned, they just needed more feedback from actual users. There's stuff happening in beta right now to further close the gap. FarSight continually changed and tuned tables during its entire run. I'm happy there's a drive to get it right, and with digital pinball, getting it perfect is an unobtainable goal as there simply is no way to perfectly match all the variations in physics a physical machine has, let alone the tactile sensation.

 

[Blkthorne]

I see it as a red flag when a company is saying we're gonna be pumping out tables every X amount of months, yet they haven't even completely sussed out the base core physics for emulated table play.

Add to that the fact that the bread and butter that kept them thriving so long were their original tables (licensed or zen), which they seem to have sidelined in favor of the rabbit hole of licensed emulation. Also add in the fact that they are stretching themselves thin with trying to support mobile, which I doubt is very lucrative, and VR, which may be lucrative in 5-10 more years somehow?

I'm just not seeing how this ISN'T a recipe for financial decline. It's not like making licensed emulated tables is going to magically dramatically boost their revenue. So, it comes down to whether or not making licensed emulated tables costs them significantly more than what it was costing them to make licensed originals and ZEN originals, because I seriously doubt they will be making much more money off the Williams and Stern tables than they were off of their original stuff.

I guess the thing for me is all the "fans" of Zen that claim they have abandoned their core audience seem to have selective memory when it comes to fantasy releases, I decided to check my purchases for Zen pinball:

2013-Pinball FX3 is released along with their Star Wars/Marvel/Zen classic tables etc.
2014-SW: Heroes Within and The Walking Dead
2015-Iron & Steel, Portal, Balls of Glory
2016-SW:Force Awakens, Alien, Marvel's Women of Power and Bethesda
2017-Universal Classics and Carnivals & Legends
2018-Jurassic World, SW: Last Jedi and SW: Solo

If you look at these lists, Zen brought out 2-4 packs a year for fantasy tables so they are still on pace for that this year even with the Williams' releases. People need to calm down and not take it as real tables vs. fantasy tables, they can both coexist.

 

[shutyertrap]

I guess the thing for me is all the "fans" of Zen that claim they have abandoned their core audience seem to have selective memory when it comes to fantasy releases, I decided to check my purchases for Zen pinball:

2013-Pinball FX3 is released along with their Star Wars/Marvel/Zen classic tables etc.
2014-SW: Heroes Within and The Walking Dead
2015-Iron & Steel, Portal, Balls of Glory
2016-SW:Force Awakens, Alien, Marvel's Women of Power and Bethesda
2017-Universal Classics and Carnivals & Legends
2018-Jurassic World, SW: Last Jedi and SW: Solo

If you look at these lists, Zen brought out 2-4 packs a year for fantasy tables so they are still on pace for that this year even with the Williams' releases. People need to calm down and not take it as real tables vs. fantasy tables, they can both coexist.

Ohhhh, mic drop!

 

[msilcommand]

I don't get how you think a licensed original table is more bread and butter than an emulated table....You hook people with the nostalgia, and then sell that back catalog!

At best, I don't think pinball is, or ever was, mainstream enough to rely on the majority of gamers caring whether a table is real or not. The bulk of gamers today are Millenials and younger. Only the very oldest Millenials would have any pinball nostalgia, and the rest mostly don't have any link to nostalgia factor. That's the point I am trying to get at here. Relying on nostalgia to make money is a bad hand to play. Sure, you'll get the initial boost of pinheads, but after that, you're going to flatten out and slowly decline. The failure of digital pinball to be a cash cow for anyone except for ZEN over the past 10 years can only be boiled down to ZEN's business model of creating originals that can be easily played by the bulk of gamers, most of whom have no pinball nostalgia.

It will be trickier for profits when it comes to licensed Williams stuff, same as if they do indeed get Stern, but not if they run with the idea of using the license further to make original tables to go along with those.

I like this idea. They could make originals with those licenses and just give them unique names, the way they did with Star Wars packs. That could definitely work.

Worrying about Zen expanding and not having proper competition is like people that worried when Amazon was going to sell more than books.

Amazon still has competition. They have never been the sole company producing one type of product. Yes, they are a behemoth, but other large stores and mom and pop stores still compete with them, and if their quality or pricing goes down too much, people will stop using them again. I remember when their customer service was so abysmal that people were dumping them circa 2010. They had to do an overhaul as a result.

Also, regarding core physics still being tweaked...Zen had them 97% dialed in as far as I was concerned, they just needed more feedback from actual users. There's stuff happening in beta right now to further close the gap. FarSight continually changed and tuned tables during its entire run. I'm happy there's a drive to get it right, and with digital pinball, getting it perfect is an unobtainable goal as there simply is no way to perfectly match all the variations in physics a physical machine has, let alone the tactile sensation.

I agree that they have it almost nailed. I still think they need to scrap the Arcade idea, and just have a real physics table with normal table rules, rather than just a tournament mode. That said, it all just comes down to how they will stretch their resources, and whether or not they are gambling on nostalgia, or the emulation licenses to give them a huge boost so they can make up for the stretch. If they are making that gamble, I think they are going to learn a hard lesson.

 

[msilcommand]

[MENTION=3112]Blkthorne[/MENTION]

I guess we will just have to wait and see where ZEN is at in 5 years. My guess is they are going to go the route with emulation for a year and see where they are at, and then they will start adding original tables back in the mix, because the "nostalgia" factor is not going to magically make revenues appear. There's not enough of us GenX or Boomer gamers around to make a big enough difference.

 

[trash80]

When someone found the download numbers of games on Steam a while back, TPA had over half a million original downloads compared to Zen's 60+ grand.

These numbers are not actually what you think they are, and in the case of TPA, it is extremely flawed due to how the calculated number was factored. As a Steam publisher/developer I could go into detail, but it is safe to say that the total TPA unique free user download and installed (but who knows if ever played) over the life of the appid was in the 75,000-100,000 range and has been on Steam since 2014. While FX3 is closer to the actual truth with roughly 50,000+ at that point in time, and has only been available since late 2017. I don't recall seeing the FX2 tallies, but I think the store page had already been removed by that time.

Anyway... none of the old Steamspy or leaked numbers have ever been accurate enough to determine actual sales ranks within a genre (we get specific to publisher data directly from Valve) but it was realistic enough to establish a baseline or determine a trend back in the day.

Also, this competition thing is funny... most people I know that play digital pinball own ALL the pinball games on Steam, while Star Wars and Marvel and (other license) fans own only the Zen tables and rarely venture out into the actual pinball space. This fan behavior pattern has changed dramatically though with the release of the WMS tables, and I expect it to shift even more so once the Stern tables are released. And if Gary gets his wish for same day/date of physical and digital release, things will be quite amazing for us fans of all of the above.

 

[trash80]

[MENTION=3112]Blkthorne[/MENTION]

I guess we will just have to wait and see where ZEN is at in 5 years. My guess is they are going to go the route with emulation for a year and see where they are at, and then they will start adding original tables back in the mix, because the "nostalgia" factor is not going to magically make revenues appear. There's not enough of us GenX or Boomer gamers around to make a big enough difference.

You'd be surprised. Nostalgia is a helluva drug, and the current pinball connoisseur space is rapidly filling with young people loaded with deep pockets of discretionary dollars seeking tactile (old skool) entertainment. See my post above mentioning Gary's wish for the marriage of digital and physical.