- Mar 14, 2012
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I agree. Especially with TPA at my fingertips, I no longer care about Zen going off the rails a bit with animations and wackiness. When Zen was the only game in town, that was a much more valid argument.
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Welcome Back to Digital Pinball Fans - please read this first
Zen Pinball - Star Wars
- Thread starter Butterkins
- Start date
I agree. Especially with TPA at my fingertips, I no longer care about Zen going off the rails a bit with animations and wackiness. When Zen was the only game in town, that was a much more valid argument.
Butterkins
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- Apr 6, 2012
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- Thread starter
- #62
Not a fan of them, myself.
And many of Zen's mini-games are undocumented, boring to play, and unrewarding. Like the rather stupid Moray eels segment on Secrets of the Deep.
I'd rather just have better pinball elements.
kimkom
Member
- Jan 28, 2013
- 914
- 1
I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with video games using a pinball environment. I think Zen have been guilty of turning out soulless, sterile clones for too long now though.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of the work the Zen team put into their game but in my opinion, they have been using a 'paint by numbers' approach to new content, after releasing their first Marvel pack. There's no passion or integrity in their creative approach, in the same way that the FarSight team have been applying to TPA.
For me, Zen have become a modern day autotuned pop act, as opposed to The Rolling Stones that they should really be.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of the work the Zen team put into their game but in my opinion, they have been using a 'paint by numbers' approach to new content, after releasing their first Marvel pack. There's no passion or integrity in their creative approach, in the same way that the FarSight team have been applying to TPA.
For me, Zen have become a modern day autotuned pop act, as opposed to The Rolling Stones that they should really be.
Kolchak357
Senior Pigeon
- May 31, 2012
- 8,102
- 2
Here is a brief review I found. Gives a little description of each Sar Wars table.
http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/9/3971774/star-wars-pinball-hands-on-pinball-fx2-zen-pinball
http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/9/3971774/star-wars-pinball-hands-on-pinball-fx2-zen-pinball
Butterkins
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- Apr 6, 2012
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- #65
Lots of new footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFyoThNqPfY&feature=youtu.be
Production values are high, as always.
Nothing much new to see in terms of basic table flow. It mostly looks very Zen-standard, bordering on cookie-cutter. Just once I'd like them to try a centre drain post...
(I wish Zen would come up with some new DMD colours, instead of Impossible-to-see Red and Mud Yellow, and have a better UI for changing them; having to go to the Operator's menu to change the colors is pretty tedious.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFyoThNqPfY&feature=youtu.be
Production values are high, as always.
Nothing much new to see in terms of basic table flow. It mostly looks very Zen-standard, bordering on cookie-cutter. Just once I'd like them to try a centre drain post...
(I wish Zen would come up with some new DMD colours, instead of Impossible-to-see Red and Mud Yellow, and have a better UI for changing them; having to go to the Operator's menu to change the colors is pretty tedious.)
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kimkom
Member
- Jan 28, 2013
- 914
- 1
Thanks for the link.
Agree with your comments.
On the DMD, why do they even bother? Given the full-on video game design and Zen's obvious agenda to bring pinball to the casual 21st century player, why persist with this over a higher definition animated score display? Seems another very odd design choice.
Personally, the more I see of Zen's work now, the less I am tempted to part with money for it. I'll save that for the TPA Xbox 360 re-launch!
inspector42
New member
- May 27, 2012
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I'm not disagreeing with you, as I have very little experience playing Zen. However, I've enjoyed the two tables I have played (Sorcerers Lair and Epic Quest). Do you have some examples of how they are cookie cutter and sterile? I'm honestly curious as I am considering purchasing more tables, but want to be fully informed.
Pinballfan69
New member
- Mar 28, 2012
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Star Wars pinball Table #1 trailer Empire Strikes Bakc (Episode V) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6RyhoN5AJRM looks so much fun.
Interestingly enough pinball has a simple concept. Use 2 (or more) flippers, Aim at flashing lights/targets/spinners, Rack up as many points as you can within the 3 or 5 ball limit (Excluding extra balls) score free games and aim to beat your best score. All round up into a nice little package that makes Pinball so much fun.
Personally I think Zen has some really original takes on the pinball mechanics. Not as deep as some of the Stern tables out there. I don't know where he get's the idea that there is no passion or creativity in their table designs. I guess it's a matter of personal opinions. If you're a fan of any type of pinball, then both games are right up your alley.
Zen has taken an arcade quality approach no doubt but they do so with and interesting take on rule sets. Take a look at Fear itself. (My personal favorite from Zen) Note certainly these modes cannot be done on a real life table although some of the magnetic aspects of Fear itself surely was inspired by real tables that have Magna save or other magnetic aspects (Twilight Zone) and even Narscar (ball goes around the entire table)
7 different missions with different things to do. 5 different multiballs excluding Wizard mode (2 missions have a 2 ball mutiball) There is a mode where a bipedal robot walks onto the open table and takes shots at certain targets that you need to clear before he shoots them. Each one gives you a million points but sometimes he can block your shot with risks to go straight down the middle. There is also a mode where you play a version of arknoid with Thors hammer as the ball requiring you to hit the target 3 times. One of the mission has you shooting at targets with a stone ball. Missing the targets will crack the stone. Crack the stone 3 times missing the target and the mode ends. After each mission there is a moving target that you must hit in certain lit areas of the table Then it rewards you additional points for beating the mission.
Also certain balls cannot be magnetized so magna saves will have no effect.
This is an example of one of the deeper tables from Zen. Like I said, Not traditional table mechanics but the rule sets certainly can be quite unique.
Since you're already playing Sorcerers lair, there are many missions that you can play. Much like many tables out there you don't have to finish every mission to get to Wizard mode however beating each mission gives you an obsidian stone. Depending on how many obsidion stones you have it muliplies the wizard mode by how many obsidian stones you have. After wizard mode ends the mission reset but clear any mission will give you and obsidian stone or a random award from the sinkhole. There are 13 stones. So scoring can be really high if you obtain. 13 obsiodians.
I prefer Zen over TPA but that's my personal opinion. I still do play TPA and sometimes can't get enough of MB, MM, NGG With Attack from MArs and STTNG coming to PS3 these tables will hold my attention.
Interestingly enough pinball has a simple concept. Use 2 (or more) flippers, Aim at flashing lights/targets/spinners, Rack up as many points as you can within the 3 or 5 ball limit (Excluding extra balls) score free games and aim to beat your best score. All round up into a nice little package that makes Pinball so much fun.
Personally I think Zen has some really original takes on the pinball mechanics. Not as deep as some of the Stern tables out there. I don't know where he get's the idea that there is no passion or creativity in their table designs. I guess it's a matter of personal opinions. If you're a fan of any type of pinball, then both games are right up your alley.
Zen has taken an arcade quality approach no doubt but they do so with and interesting take on rule sets. Take a look at Fear itself. (My personal favorite from Zen) Note certainly these modes cannot be done on a real life table although some of the magnetic aspects of Fear itself surely was inspired by real tables that have Magna save or other magnetic aspects (Twilight Zone) and even Narscar (ball goes around the entire table)
7 different missions with different things to do. 5 different multiballs excluding Wizard mode (2 missions have a 2 ball mutiball) There is a mode where a bipedal robot walks onto the open table and takes shots at certain targets that you need to clear before he shoots them. Each one gives you a million points but sometimes he can block your shot with risks to go straight down the middle. There is also a mode where you play a version of arknoid with Thors hammer as the ball requiring you to hit the target 3 times. One of the mission has you shooting at targets with a stone ball. Missing the targets will crack the stone. Crack the stone 3 times missing the target and the mode ends. After each mission there is a moving target that you must hit in certain lit areas of the table Then it rewards you additional points for beating the mission.
Also certain balls cannot be magnetized so magna saves will have no effect.
This is an example of one of the deeper tables from Zen. Like I said, Not traditional table mechanics but the rule sets certainly can be quite unique.
Since you're already playing Sorcerers lair, there are many missions that you can play. Much like many tables out there you don't have to finish every mission to get to Wizard mode however beating each mission gives you an obsidian stone. Depending on how many obsidion stones you have it muliplies the wizard mode by how many obsidian stones you have. After wizard mode ends the mission reset but clear any mission will give you and obsidian stone or a random award from the sinkhole. There are 13 stones. So scoring can be really high if you obtain. 13 obsiodians.
I prefer Zen over TPA but that's my personal opinion. I still do play TPA and sometimes can't get enough of MB, MM, NGG With Attack from MArs and STTNG coming to PS3 these tables will hold my attention.
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inspector42
New member
- May 27, 2012
- 344
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I've definitely done decently well on Sorcerer's Lair. I can get to the Wizard Mode pretty easily.
I guess I should rephrase my question... What makes Zen more cookie cutter than many of the TPA tables? Steve Ritchie tables all have similarities. So do the Papaduik. Or do you (kimkom) have the same opinion of TPA tables?
I guess I should rephrase my question... What makes Zen more cookie cutter than many of the TPA tables? Steve Ritchie tables all have similarities. So do the Papaduik. Or do you (kimkom) have the same opinion of TPA tables?
- Mar 14, 2012
- 7,334
- 0
I don't see Zen as being cookie cutter. And I find Sorcerer's Lair to be as close as they've come to a traditional modern pinball layout with mostly traditional rules. Wolverine is a close second to that.
I spent a ton of time on Iron Man pre TPA coming out, and personally loved the elements on that table that were purely 'only in a digital world' type things.
That being said, here are my gripes with Zen (and I can already tell the Boba Fett and Clone Wars tables fall into these traps)...
1. A lot of Zen tables have no flow in ball movement. Blade is a good example of this. Fantastic wizard mode, unique day/night mode, but the ball is so stop and go. To me it feels like shooting into nothing but dead ends. Many other tables suffer this fate, not all, but many. Am I alone in feeling this way?
2. A lot of the tables are too crowded, thus making the tables feel short. Paranormal feels like half a table, as does V12 for example.
3. Other tables just have really strange shots, like X-Men and El Dorado. This goes a little into table flow, where shots can just feel awkward.
4. They're use of color and graphics on the table is often a visual mess that your eye just can't make sense of. I really want to love Tesla, but everything is the same color and I can't figure out what's happening half the time! I tried the demo to Ninja Gaiden, and that was technicolor throw up. Same thing with Plants vs. Zombies, where there's just too much going on. Too me this is the single biggest difference between classic Williams tables and modern Stern, and here Zen does the same thing.
5. They also haven't figured out how to make what you need to do on a table clear. I started playing TZ, and within an hour I was starting to get it, and by the end of the night I understood enough of the rules to accomplish what needed being done. I still don't know the intricacies, but it'll come. With Zen, it sometimes takes me days to even have a rudimentary understanding of the table. To this day I have no clue what I'm doing in El Dorado or Shamen, and I learned most of the Marvel tables only by going online and reading up on them (pre Zen 2 with instructions).
6. The music. The techno trance thing they got going on, it's numbing. I'm actually excited for the Star Wars tables just because there'll be some real composed music...I hope.
All that being said though, there is a polish to Zen that I wish TPA could attain. The way they connect you to friends, the online multi-player battles, the team scoring, stats, plain awesomesauce. I do find a feeling of soullessness in a lot of their tables, but there are some gems too. I honestly think the no limits aspect of digital pinball creation hurts them, as they're allowed to do too much. The tables that show some restraint, those are the ones I like the best from Zen. I only own maybe half the tables available, and it was that way before TPA entered the picture. I've booted up Zen maybe 3 times since, while TPA is almost a daily thing for me.
Not to mention the TPA community here on these forums is amazing compared to the Zen forums!
I spent a ton of time on Iron Man pre TPA coming out, and personally loved the elements on that table that were purely 'only in a digital world' type things.
That being said, here are my gripes with Zen (and I can already tell the Boba Fett and Clone Wars tables fall into these traps)...
1. A lot of Zen tables have no flow in ball movement. Blade is a good example of this. Fantastic wizard mode, unique day/night mode, but the ball is so stop and go. To me it feels like shooting into nothing but dead ends. Many other tables suffer this fate, not all, but many. Am I alone in feeling this way?
2. A lot of the tables are too crowded, thus making the tables feel short. Paranormal feels like half a table, as does V12 for example.
3. Other tables just have really strange shots, like X-Men and El Dorado. This goes a little into table flow, where shots can just feel awkward.
4. They're use of color and graphics on the table is often a visual mess that your eye just can't make sense of. I really want to love Tesla, but everything is the same color and I can't figure out what's happening half the time! I tried the demo to Ninja Gaiden, and that was technicolor throw up. Same thing with Plants vs. Zombies, where there's just too much going on. Too me this is the single biggest difference between classic Williams tables and modern Stern, and here Zen does the same thing.
5. They also haven't figured out how to make what you need to do on a table clear. I started playing TZ, and within an hour I was starting to get it, and by the end of the night I understood enough of the rules to accomplish what needed being done. I still don't know the intricacies, but it'll come. With Zen, it sometimes takes me days to even have a rudimentary understanding of the table. To this day I have no clue what I'm doing in El Dorado or Shamen, and I learned most of the Marvel tables only by going online and reading up on them (pre Zen 2 with instructions).
6. The music. The techno trance thing they got going on, it's numbing. I'm actually excited for the Star Wars tables just because there'll be some real composed music...I hope.
All that being said though, there is a polish to Zen that I wish TPA could attain. The way they connect you to friends, the online multi-player battles, the team scoring, stats, plain awesomesauce. I do find a feeling of soullessness in a lot of their tables, but there are some gems too. I honestly think the no limits aspect of digital pinball creation hurts them, as they're allowed to do too much. The tables that show some restraint, those are the ones I like the best from Zen. I only own maybe half the tables available, and it was that way before TPA entered the picture. I've booted up Zen maybe 3 times since, while TPA is almost a daily thing for me.
Not to mention the TPA community here on these forums is amazing compared to the Zen forums!
inspector42
New member
- May 27, 2012
- 344
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Thanks for the response. That's the sort of information I was definitely looking for. Sounds like a table by table basis is the best approach.
atlantis1982
New member
- Nov 23, 2012
- 360
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What I like to know is the cost for each table, are they gonna be the same as the marvel tables (android) or is Disney want more from them?
ScotchYeti
Member
- Apr 13, 2012
- 447
- 0
It looks like you pay the same as for the Marvel packs but only get 3 tables instead of 4. The time is not right yet for charging more than 10 bucks.
Pinballfan69
New member
- Mar 28, 2012
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I don't think they will charge more than their normal pricing for packs. 3 tables for $10 and with the SW IP/license isn't bad considering. Even with that you get the operators meni to change the difficulty unlike TPA and them charging and extra $4 - $4.99 for It. I know I'm dissing this but really?!?!
Pinballfan69
New member
- Mar 28, 2012
- 525
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I guess they haven't yet released the details but I think Consoles are different than mobile platforms regarding this. All I know is that I couldn't buy single tables when Avengers chronicles, Vengeance & Virtue pack was released on the PS3.
Kolchak357
Senior Pigeon
- May 31, 2012
- 8,102
- 2
The iOS app shows them on the table menu with a coming soon banner over each one. I assume this means they will be sold separately on iOS as the Marvel tables were.
SilverBalls
Active member
- Apr 12, 2012
- 1,233
- 3
I can't believe they are adding checkpoints on missions to allow you to continue where you left off. The tables are way to easy as it is, so that is the last thing we needed.
Pinballfan69
New member
- Mar 28, 2012
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in some way, I agree with you although I wonder how many actual Checkpoints are within each scene? Even I really think Zen is trying to get more people involved in this small market of pinball fans. In the Boba Fett table there is supposed to be an option to play a mission with different levels of difficulty. I like you want more challenging tables Civil War was better but PvZ was a snore in my opinion. To easy to obtain and maintain mulitball.