“Pro” Cabinet Mode?

[Captaincroutons]

Ok, old school trs-80 references don’t make you an expert either. Cab support is a steam feature.

My point being there’s only one platform they’d need to work on:steam. Not Xbox, PlayStation, Nintendo, mobile. Those don’t do cabinet mode. They don’t need to.

Furthermore, I don’t even know what you’re arguing against. As far as the camera control goes, the rendering is already there. Just go shift through camera views. Literally, they could give us the ability to control more precisely the angle we want with what they already have.

 

[AcadDude]

So, this is something I’ve been thinking about for a while now. It seems to me(biased, probably, since I’m in this group), that there are a lot of cabinet users and Zen has largely ignored us since the introduction of their basic cabinet mode ages ago. I’m not sure what we as cab users need to do to get their attention back on us, and I get that the license is still fairly new so they’re focused on that. That being said, how would people feel about a paid, upgraded cabinet mode that would integrate the kind of features we all want? Something to incentivize Zen to put some work into it, and it wouldn’t need to be exorbitantly expensive for them to profit off it(definitely not arcooda expensive, blech).

Just curious what everyone thinks about this, it would definitely be worth it to me, personally. I played a lot of VPX, and while I appreciate all the hard work people put into it, I personally get more enjoyment out of the Zen recreations. I’m more than happy to put the money into it, same with licensed table recreations, they could sell them individually for $10-$25 and I’d happily pay it.

Thoughts?

Is there enough cabinet owners that use FX3? I think maybe that number is pretty low compared to overall users. Of those cabinet users, how many have their cabinet setup with all the possible rabbit holes we could run down.

I like the current cabinet support. DMD is a separate monitor. Backglass is a still image. It would be cool if the backglass images could be animated on several machines. I am ok with the animations transferring to the main playfield monitor.

I don't need to have an experience that is exactly like a regular pinball machine. Do we get to the point where we want coins to work in the coin slot for credits? VP does it, but is it needed for gameplay?

 

[Captaincroutons]

Is there enough cabinet owners that use FX3? I think maybe that number is pretty low compared to overall users. Of those cabinet users, how many have their cabinet setup with all the possible rabbit holes we could run down.

I like the current cabinet support. DMD is a separate monitor. Backglass is a still image. It would be cool if the backglass images could be animated on several machines. I am ok with the animations transferring to the main playfield monitor.

I don't need to have an experience that is exactly like a regular pinball machine. Do we get to the point where we want coins to work in the coin slot for credits? VP does it, but is it needed for gameplay?

Well, I guess only Zen could tell us how many codes they’ve given out, but it seems like it’s a decent number and still gaining steadily.

I think if they would take just a few tiny steps forward—better camera control, playfield bulb/ambient room lighting control, and the ability to remove the side rails from your playfield for better immersion, cabinet mode would be amazing. I can go either way on actually coining up, you can do it in VP or just turn on free play, but it can be nice on mame machines to install a real coin door and actually use coins. Something my kids enjoy.

 

[trash80]

Ok, old school trs-80 references don’t make you an expert either. Cab support is a steam feature.

My point being there’s only one platform they’d need to work on:steam. Not Xbox, PlayStation, Nintendo, mobile. Those don’t do cabinet mode. They don’t need to.

Furthermore, I don’t even know what you’re arguing against. As far as the camera control goes, the rendering is already there. Just go shift through camera views. Literally, they could give us the ability to control more precisely the angle we want with what they already have.

I'm arguing against your suggestion for a $20 paid "pro" version of the cabinet support feature that Zen hands out by request for personal home use only as it would ultimately be a money pit for Zen.

Camera views are hard coded on a table by table basis. There is no way for them to provide a method to more precisely control the view within the current framework.

 

[Captaincroutons]

I'm arguing against your suggestion for a $20 paid "pro" version of the cabinet support feature that Zen hands out by request for personal home use only as it would ultimately be a money pit for Zen.

Camera views are hard coded on a table by table basis. There is no way for them to provide a method to more precisely control the view within the current framework.

Home use is irrelevant. Since you’re a business man, what do you suggest? Status quo? Or higher price point?

The cameras have an animation when shifting views, because you’re looking at 3D rendered objects, so no, I don’t agree with what you’re saying. They also have dynamic cameras. This means we could easily have more precise control, like an “in-between” camera as many have described. Something between view 1 and 2 for example.

 

[trash80]

Well, I guess only Zen could tell us how many codes they’ve given out, but it seems like it’s a decent number and still gaining steadily.

I think if they would take just a few tiny steps forward—better camera control, playfield bulb/ambient room lighting control, and the ability to remove the side rails from your playfield for better immersion, cabinet mode would be amazing. I can go either way on actually coining up, you can do it in VP or just turn on free play, but it can be nice on mame machines to install a real coin door and actually use coins. Something my kids enjoy.

Big difference between give and purchase when it comes to adoption and then owner expectations.

All the things you are asking for are not trivial by any stretch. Every element you want access to alter is hard coded on a table by table basis. And lets not compare Zen to VPX development (I prefer VP myself, but I may be biased) and what you can and can't do. The rules of existing for both are at complete opposite ends and while some of the stuff you are wishing for would be really cool, I guess I'm just a bah-humbug kind of person this time of year.

 

[trash80]

Home use is irrelevant. Since you’re a business man, what do you suggest? Status quo? Or higher price point?

The cameras have an animation when shifting views, because you’re looking at 3D rendered objects, so no, I don’t agree with what you’re saying. They also have dynamic cameras. This means we could easily have more precise control, like an “in-between” camera as many have described. Something between view 1 and 2 for example.

And you would be wrong. Even the "dynamic" cameras are hard coded within specific parameters. This is something that has been discussed over and over within the Zen forums for years. Which if you go dig up some of this stuff you will find out that the playfield toys and other aspects of the table are not completely rendered (think of a Hollywood set with just facades) which is what makes what you are asking practically impossible.

Regarding Home use, that is a current licensing requirement, so it is relevant to the overall discussion and ultimately price point should Zen ever pursue what you are asking. Which should Zen go this paid route, I'd guess they would just do VR and forget about cabinet support other than what it currently is.

 

[Captaincroutons]

I meant from the standpoint of it’s currently home use only, and there would be no need for them to sell a commercial license for business imo.

So they’re faking 3D and not using all 3D objects?

EDIT: I would argue there are even fewer VR users than cabinet users. More affordable headsets like the oculus quest are reaching more people, but VR is still very much in its infancy. Even John Carmack has stated standalone headsets can’t get much better with current chip limitations, and he’s not optimistic about quantum computing.

 

[shogun00]

Yes, I’m aware of their cabs, but let’s be honest, they know as well as we do that most of us will never buy them.

No, but many of the businesses that are buying them would exploit the offer.

I can see a few bar arcades (ie barcades) taking advantage of the deal in a heartbeat. Just make their own pincab and pay $20 more for the upgrade you suggested.

 

[Captain Caveman]

If Zen could make a decent profit they would likely sell a better cab version.. obviously they can't justify the time and costs needed to do it.

 

[trash80]

I meant from the standpoint of it’s currently home use only, and there would be no need for them to sell a commercial license for business imo.

So they’re faking 3D and not using all 3D objects?

EDIT: I would argue there are even fewer VR users than cabinet users. More affordable headsets like the oculus quest are reaching more people, but VR is still very much in its infancy. Even John Carmack has stated standalone headsets can’t get much better with current chip limitations, and he’s not optimistic about quantum computing.

And you would lose that argument every day of the week, in fact, it is such an absurd suggestion that I think this conversation has run its course.

 

[Captaincroutons]

So you’re saying JOHN CARMACK is wrong? Right lol. Clearly this conversation never began. You think you know better than the guy who is the industry leader in VR.

Facebook said after the release of the Quest they have a lot of work to do to make it mainstream and a sustainable industry. VR is nowhere NEAR the levels of mainstream consoles. And they are still putting FX2 on headsets. So maybe you’re happy with that, but I’m not. I think there is definitely an untapped market, and nothing is stopping people NOW from using cab support on a pin in a barcade, so that argument doesn’t hold water with me. People are also using mame in arcade settings, which is also illegal, so the argument that people will take advantage is just silly. I’m not saying I’m an expert, in fact I said I wasn’t. Clearly you aren’t either, and actual experts say you’re wrong about VR. This isn’t about VR though, this is just an opinion post about the fact that I(and MANY others) believe Zen should put in a little more work on cab mode. I love what they’ve done so far with the license, they’re light years ahead of anything Pinball Arcade ever did.

I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties, trash.

 

[trash80]

So you’re saying JOHN CARMACK is wrong? Right lol. Clearly this conversation never began. You think you know better than the guy who is the industry leader in VR.

Facebook said after the release of the Quest they have a lot of work to do to make it mainstream and a sustainable industry. VR is nowhere NEAR the levels of mainstream consoles. And they are still putting FX2 on headsets. So maybe you’re happy with that, but I’m not. I think there is definitely an untapped market, and nothing is stopping people NOW from using cab support on a pin in a barcade, so that argument doesn’t hold water with me. People are also using mame in arcade settings, which is also illegal, so the argument that people will take advantage is just silly. I’m not saying I’m an expert, in fact I said I wasn’t. Clearly you aren’t either, and actual experts say you’re wrong about VR. This isn’t about VR though, this is just an opinion post about the fact that I(and MANY others) believe Zen should put in a little more work on cab mode. I love what they’ve done so far with the license, they’re light years ahead of anything Pinball Arcade ever did.

I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties, trash.

John Carmack has been wrong more than right. And while I will always have a place in my heart for BSP and GEL, sometimes he can't see the forest for the trees. Anyway, thanks for all the "not an expert" speculation.

But I do agree, I'd love to see Zen put more effort into the cabinet mode, oh wait, they already have, its just out of the price range and market segment you were hoping for.

 

[Captaincroutons]

John Carmack has been wrong more than right. And while I will always have a place in my heart for BSP and GEL, sometimes he can't see the forest for the trees. Anyway, thanks for all the "not an expert" speculation.

But I do agree, I'd love to see Zen put more effort into the cabinet mode, oh wait, they already have, its just out of the price range and market segment you were hoping for.

I genuinely don’t know what your problem is, if you’re just a troll or a terrible human. This is a forum. It’s not for “experts” which you clearly aren’t either. Obviously no one agrees with any of your points because you’re a smug, pretentious troglodyte who thinks your opinions are superior. Enjoy your miserable existence.

And obviously, I’m not gonna listen to random forum guy over JOHN FREAKING CARMACK. Rofl. I’m sure your achievements are close to his. :rolleyes

 

[MBeeching]

Well, I guess only Zen could tell us how many codes they’ve given out, but it seems like it’s a decent number and still gaining steadily.

From reading the Steam forums, I'm slightly suspicious that most cabinet code requests are made to unlock portrait mode. Zen should make that a standard option as it clearly skews the true number. Many users get extremely angry when you inform them it's possible to play in portrait mode if they rotate their monitor before launching. Apparently that requires too much time and effort... though it's four or less clicks of the mouse and perhaps 10 seconds of their time?

 

[Captaincroutons]

From reading the Steam forums, I'm slightly suspicious that most cabinet code requests are made to unlock portrait mode. Zen should make that a standard option as it clearly skews the true number. Many users get extremely angry when you inform them it's possible to play in portrait mode if they rotate their monitor before launching. Apparently that requires too much time and effort... though it's four or less clicks of the mouse and perhaps 10 seconds of their time?

I didn’t know people requested codes just for that... According to Vpinball.com’s pin cab map, there are approximately 300 people that have put their cabs on the map. It’s probably safe to assume that the majority of people with pin cabs don’t register their location on the site. I’d be curious to see how many cabs virtuapin has sold, for example. I’d be willing to bet most people have FX3 on their cabs even if they also use VPX, etc. I just think it’s something Zen should really look into. Again, I know they’re focused right now on the WMS/Bally license, and some of their other side projects they recently released, but I’ve always felt like pinball should be their focus.

 

[Narc0lep5y]

Cabinet is so niche. I know we love them and I love mine, but they don’t move the meter enough for a software company. Theres no way the user base is anything close to something that development could be cost effective. The cost of entry is high. The software and set up is beyond complex. The community is great and there’s some PR value in catering to them, but it’s still a really small group.

The retail cabinets Zen is doing is really the best way to justify dev costs because they have another revenue stream to offset it with. If we get more features in cabinet mode as a result that’s a win. And in doing this, Zen has done something none of the other pinball software developers has done in finding another way to offset those dev costs. .

Selling a cabinet mode upgrade has almost no value to Zen. The installed base is low. At least a portion of those users probably already have fx3 anyway so there’s not much additional revenue for tables. And I’d argue that charging additional for a cabinet mode at anything more than a $20 price point does more damage to their reputation than they would gain in PR from those who buy it. And every point higher in price creates greater expectations from an already vocal crowd for features and support.

I’d love active backglass and better camera placement and head tracking and SSF support but when the community has already done most of those things themselves, that just further lowers the base of potential purchasers. Look at those people on this forum that didn’t pony up the money for Arcooda cabinet mode because NoEx solution did most of it already as an example of that.

Now apply that same logic to cab owners who don’t want to pay for tables in fx3 because they have the table in VPX or FP and knock some more off the list and that small base just keeps shrinking.







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[Citizen]

I would argue there are even fewer VR users than cabinet users.

There are an estimated 20 million VR headset users in the US alone as of 2019. Even when you narrow that down specifically to pinball fans, do you really think pincab owners outnumber them?

 

[Captaincroutons]

Cabinet is so niche. I know we love them and I love mine, but they don’t move the meter enough for a software company. Theres no way the user base is anything close to something that development could be cost effective. The cost of entry is high. The software and set up is beyond complex. The community is great and there’s some PR value in catering to them, but it’s still a really small group.

The retail cabinets Zen is doing is really the best way to justify dev costs because they have another revenue stream to offset it with. If we get more features in cabinet mode as a result that’s a win. And in doing this, Zen has done something none of the other pinball software developers has done in finding another way to offset those dev costs. .

Selling a cabinet mode upgrade has almost no value to Zen. The installed base is low. At least a portion of those users probably already have fx3 anyway so there’s not much additional revenue for tables. And I’d argue that charging additional for a cabinet mode at anything more than a $20 price point does more damage to their reputation than they would gain in PR from those who buy it. And every point higher in price creates greater expectations from an already vocal crowd for features and support.

I’d love active backglass and better camera placement and head tracking and SSF support but when the community has already done most of those things themselves, that just further lowers the base of potential purchasers. Look at those people on this forum that didn’t pony up the money for Arcooda cabinet mode because NoEx solution did most of it already as an example of that.

Now apply that same logic to cab owners who don’t want to pay for tables in fx3 because they have the table in VPX or FP and knock some more off the list and that small base just keeps shrinking.







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I guess ultimately it’s wishful thinking. The community is amazing, and the people who put in so much of their personal time to create these awesome tools many of us use(like NoEX, DDH, Tom, and many others I couldn’t possibly name in one post), but I still think a unified solution would be best. You’re right, they’ve created a lot of goodwill(for the most part) in the community, and a big money grab could undo that. The $20 price point I threw out was just a random low number, I’d be willing to pay a lot more for a unified solution from zen, but I get that a lot of people wouldn’t. And yeah, it’s hard to gauge how many real users there are. It seems like a solid user base when you look at all the different sites, creators, projects, etc., and from my point of view, I don’t know how anyone can play on a desktop or console period. I occasionally play on my phone when I have downtime at work, but after playing on a pin cab, I can’t even imagine going back to desktop or console play. The cost of entry is actually quite low for someone who is willing to build their own cab, I’d argue. Especially if you build a mini(still far better than desktop or console play, imo).

Ultimately, Zen is going to do what makes the most sense for them. I have yet to see one of their cabs on location, but I don’t live in an area with lots of barcades. I just can’t imagine they’ve sold many of those either though. From reading around, I’ve only seen them reported at a handful of locations. For the time being, I guess the thing to hope for is them to work on perfecting the physics and updating the older volumes.

As far as VR goes, I’m interested in it, but the cost of entry is just too high for what you get right now, imo. I think you definitely need a pedestal type setup to solidify the experience, and hopefully in the next few years, you’ll be able to get a Quest-like device with better specs at a similar price point. Just seems like a bad time to get into it, while the tech is still improving fairly quickly.

 

[Captaincroutons]

There are an estimated 20 million VR headset users in the US alone as of 2019. Even when you narrow that down specifically to pinball fans, do you really think pincab owners outnumber them?

Hard to say, you can’t find numbers of either, but it doesn’t seem like Zen is really prioritizing vr. Again, coming from a person who doesn’t currently own a vr headset, but just considering the last pack they released was the universal pack...