It's hard to get used to BSD's flippers. It's a ratio of about 25:1 one for bad games vs. good games. That and it seems like quite a few shots go right for the outlanes on the table too. It's okay though. It's a fun table. I did notice however that going from BSD to something like Black Rose or Scared Stiff is like turning the game on easy mode because of the difference in flipper size.
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Drain Monsters
- Thread starter 9u1d0
- Start date
Yes, real pinball games are designed to do that. for example the standups in BSD are noted for their ability to fling balls out of control and down the drain. Most players call then the standups of death, and the game even mocks you for using them to light castle locks, using a laughter sample different from the one used by the ramp. Translation: the designers knew you'd drain off of them. Phantom of the Opera has fairly brutal outlanes and a huge flipper gap, and house balls right off the plunge can and do happen often, usually right down an outlane to it saying "NOOOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOO!" Particularly infuriating on ball three.
Standups at the edge of a ramp are also well known for flinging balls places you really don't want them to be. The ones in funhouse are known as the PEST targets, and the menu targets on CFTBL are quite dangerous. and barely missing the snackbar there on many real life machines causes it to bounce straight down the middle. The ones on ST:TNG are pretty darn nasty too. Big Shot and Rock and Roll Heart of Gold are real drain shots on doctor dude as well. Downward facing standups are usually NOT your friend.
So yes, certain rebounds are artificially directed towards the drain on purpose in TPA, to make up for the ease of shot making and low resolution of the physics. the thing is, though once you recognize these rebounds, and can see them coming, you can nudge and save them every time, and that's how people pwn TPA. When they forget to do this on a table, such as Elvira, we have many people playing it forever. Until you get your flippers on the ball, it's as drainy as the real life one. but once you do, because all the near misses are safe, you can play for long periods of time. I repeat. if you try and shoot a ramp and are just a little off, you ALWAYS GET THE BALL BACK. that is what makes the table so easy to dominate and trigger game breaking bugs.
If they fail to tune enough near misses to drain the game becomes wayyyy too easy.
Standups at the edge of a ramp are also well known for flinging balls places you really don't want them to be. The ones in funhouse are known as the PEST targets, and the menu targets on CFTBL are quite dangerous. and barely missing the snackbar there on many real life machines causes it to bounce straight down the middle. The ones on ST:TNG are pretty darn nasty too. Big Shot and Rock and Roll Heart of Gold are real drain shots on doctor dude as well. Downward facing standups are usually NOT your friend.
So yes, certain rebounds are artificially directed towards the drain on purpose in TPA, to make up for the ease of shot making and low resolution of the physics. the thing is, though once you recognize these rebounds, and can see them coming, you can nudge and save them every time, and that's how people pwn TPA. When they forget to do this on a table, such as Elvira, we have many people playing it forever. Until you get your flippers on the ball, it's as drainy as the real life one. but once you do, because all the near misses are safe, you can play for long periods of time. I repeat. if you try and shoot a ramp and are just a little off, you ALWAYS GET THE BALL BACK. that is what makes the table so easy to dominate and trigger game breaking bugs.
If they fail to tune enough near misses to drain the game becomes wayyyy too easy.
vikingerik
Active member
- Nov 6, 2013
- 1,205
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Zaphod, that's the best post I've ever seen on these forums. Should be required reading for every newcomer.
About TPA tables intentionally directing rebounds towards a drain... is that based on beta testing or other actual insider info, or is it a calculated hunch?
About TPA tables intentionally directing rebounds towards a drain... is that based on beta testing or other actual insider info, or is it a calculated hunch?
EldarOfSuburbia
New member
- Feb 8, 2014
- 4,032
- 0
The note on Scared Stiff is somewhat telling. I played a real Scared Stiff recently, and, well, it's not as easy. There was nothing wrong with the flippers, the table was in excellent condition. The ramps just weren't as easy to make as the TPA version, and I don't mean a bit more difficult, they were significantly harder. Weak shots up the left ramp came screaming STDM requiring quick action to attempt a slap save. Weak shots up the left ramp in TPA invariably make it all the way around! The left outlane in TPA hardly ever comes into play, making 'The Spell' moot. On the real SS, the left outlane is a hungry monster waiting to gobble up stray balls.
I'm pretty sure it's tweaked in, because normally rebounds off of standups in tpa are more predictable then in real life. So a shot that would maybe drain 25% of the time in real life will drain either 100% of the time or 0% of the time in TPA. If too many of those danger shots don't drain, the table becomes a walk in the park.
FS made many fails in this regard, such as the easy 3bank clear in T2, which would never be that reliable in real life, and the superdog rebound always dropping in, which is NOT how it goes in real life.
I've already tried to explain to them that totally consistent rebounds off of rubber and standups are not realistic, and that adding in a small amount of randomization of trajectory off of every rebound from rubber and standups would make the games much less exploitable, but for some reason they can't seem to figure out how to do it.
Also the reason that some people play worse on real life games when they know what to do. it's because near misses are tweaked to drain by the designers in real life. when you are just flailing around, there will be more big misses then near misses, and thus less drains. See EATPM for what happens when near misses do not drain.
Note that, for the most part, those tweaked in drains are drains that would happen in real life. the table model is just every so slightly adjusted until the drains start happening, i'd say. there isn't a script that says "drain now" but the angles of those standups are adjusted slightly until the table drains enough. move the post a milimeter to the right here, move it a millimeter left there, and suddenly the near miss drains instead of coming back neatly to the flippers every single time.
FS made many fails in this regard, such as the easy 3bank clear in T2, which would never be that reliable in real life, and the superdog rebound always dropping in, which is NOT how it goes in real life.
I've already tried to explain to them that totally consistent rebounds off of rubber and standups are not realistic, and that adding in a small amount of randomization of trajectory off of every rebound from rubber and standups would make the games much less exploitable, but for some reason they can't seem to figure out how to do it.
Also the reason that some people play worse on real life games when they know what to do. it's because near misses are tweaked to drain by the designers in real life. when you are just flailing around, there will be more big misses then near misses, and thus less drains. See EATPM for what happens when near misses do not drain.
Note that, for the most part, those tweaked in drains are drains that would happen in real life. the table model is just every so slightly adjusted until the drains start happening, i'd say. there isn't a script that says "drain now" but the angles of those standups are adjusted slightly until the table drains enough. move the post a milimeter to the right here, move it a millimeter left there, and suddenly the near miss drains instead of coming back neatly to the flippers every single time.
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