Farsight must counterattack!

[bmsuseluda]

That new Stern Batman table is boss, love to see that come to TPA on the PS4.

woaw this would be great. I like the new stern tables a lot do keep em comin=D

 

[Jake_Ry4n]

I think we'll be on Williams pack 3 by the time Farsight counter attacks pack 1. That's been the problem the whole time. If they were that strategic we wouldn't be where we are now .

 

[Pete]

I really need some new tables already. Its been sooooo long. Zen's table instructions SUCK so I do not see Zen as a real tool for learning the entire rules of a table. TPA is a perfect guide book for improving your knowledge for real life tournaments. Honestly Ive always thought Zen was crap, now that they have some decent real life tables things have changed but every single thing they have ever put out before was pure worthless garbage to me.

 

[Sean]

Haha, don’t hold back now! I’m not sold on the new interface and I guess I need to learn the controls, but until there’s something new, the physics don’t wow me enough to bother at the moment. I’m too busy whit Pixeljunk Shooter anyway...

 

[yespage]

I think we'll be on Williams pack 3 by the time Farsight counter attacks pack 1. That's been the problem the whole time. If they were that strategic we wouldn't be where we are now .

Farsight's greatest problem is they have already published some of the best tables ever made. All that is left are much newer licensed Stern tables.

 

[Kolchak357]

There's also 1970's era Gottliebs. Some of the best EMs ever made. Plus great classic era Stern like Seawitch, Galaxy, Meteor, etc.
I'd be excited for many of those.
Not that I don't love many modern Stern pins. Those would be great as well.

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

Zen's table instructions SUCK so I do not see Zen as a real tool for learning the entire rules of a table. TPA is a perfect guide book for improving your knowledge for real life tournaments. Honestly Ive always thought Zen was crap, now that they have some decent real life tables things have changed but every single thing they have ever put out before was pure worthless garbage to me.

You are correct about Zen's instructions sucking. At least so far, you can go to Pinball Arcade to learn the rules. Once they start releasing tables that Farsight didn't do, I would suggest going to the pinball archive http://www.pinball.org/rules/index-old.html or Tilt Forums Wiki Rulesheets http://tiltforums.com/c/game-specific/rulesheet-wikis.

Overall though, I think Zen is a much more professional company and is doing a great job. My main issue is that they have made improvements on the table physics ("classic" physics, or what they call "arcade-perfect simulation physics") but have kind of fudged up the flipper physics (mostly aiming and some things like live catch attempts not killing momentum on the ball - a live catch is not always a dead stop on the flipper like in Farsight's physics) while trying to perfect them. The net result is that the tables are somewhat harder than in real life. When the slope of the table is high (fast ball speed), the playfield is perfectly clean, and the slings, bumpers, etc... are all full strength and realistic, but you can no longer aim correctly or control the ball realistically then it actually makes the machine harder to play instead of more "realistic". I hope they address this but I seem to be in the minority on my criticisms at this point.

 

[shutyertrap]

You are correct about Zen's instructions sucking. At least so far, you can go to Pinball Arcade to learn the rules. Once they start releasing tables that Farsight didn't do, I would suggest going to the pinball archive http://www.pinball.org/rules/index-old.html or Tilt Forums Wiki Rulesheets http://tiltforums.com/c/game-specific/rulesheet-wikis.

Overall though, I think Zen is a much more professional company and is doing a great job. My main issue is that they have made improvements on the table physics ("classic" physics, or what they call "arcade-perfect simulation physics") but have kind of fudged up the flipper physics (mostly aiming and some things like live catch attempts not killing momentum on the ball - a live catch is not always a dead stop on the flipper like in Farsight's physics) while trying to perfect them. The net result is that the tables are somewhat harder than in real life. When the slope of the table is high (fast ball speed), the playfield is perfectly clean, and the slings, bumpers, etc... are all full strength and realistic, but you can no longer aim correctly or control the ball realistically then it actually makes the machine harder to play instead of more "realistic". I hope they address this but I seem to be in the minority on my criticisms at this point.

They are indeed working on improving the flipper physics. Unlike FarSight, Zen won't release a new iteration of something until they feel it is spot on. Considering they've released all of 1 table pack, it's amazing how little slack people are willing to cut them. They are still reacting to user feedback, as well as addressing a list of goals they have for themselves in-house. I think we as a community gave FarSight at least the entire first season before the gripes started! I'd also point out that if the difficulty of the table is too much, just play the Zen single player version which is as easy as TPA, but still has way better physics.

 

[shutyertrap]

I really need some new tables already. Its been sooooo long. Zen's table instructions SUCK so I do not see Zen as a real tool for learning the entire rules of a table. TPA is a perfect guide book for improving your knowledge for real life tournaments. Honestly Ive always thought Zen was crap, now that they have some decent real life tables things have changed but every single thing they have ever put out before was pure worthless garbage to me.

So if you walked up to a new pinball machine, do you throw a hissy because the 3x5 instruction card on the apron is lacking? Zen's instructions are at least a little more informative than that, but no they aren't filled with every possible scoring scenario like done in TPA. I'll tell you what though, I may know every in and out of how to score on Monster Bash, but come tournament time it's all about execution and that's a whole other beast to contend with. I've been schooled by plenty of people who have never touched a certain machine and still could dominate a table.

And out of curiosity, what was the last Zen original you tried? Because that's a pretty amazing statement to say their entire output of tables is garbage. Is it the themes, the layouts, the physics, the rules? Because blanket statements like that just make for laughable opinions. I have no doubt that you and plenty of other people don't enjoy Zen, I just want to understand more in depth where that comes from.

 

[shutyertrap]

Farsight's greatest problem is they have already published some of the best tables ever made. All that is left are much newer licensed Stern tables.

This is the main topic in our latest BlahCade Pinball Podcast, and there's hardly any 'new' Stern tables FarSight will even be able to do when looking at how they've done things in the past. Between licenses that are off the table due to Zen already having it locked up (Deadpool, Guardians, Star Wars, etc) or music licenses that would require a huge fee, and then titles with studios who won't take their phone calls, it's a shockingly small list.

https://medium.com/blahcade-pinball-podcast/blahcade-157-a-box-of-chiclets-c0d4f1015505

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

They are indeed working on improving the flipper physics. Unlike FarSight, Zen won't release a new iteration of something until they feel it is spot on. Considering they've released all of 1 table pack, it's amazing how little slack people are willing to cut them. They are still reacting to user feedback, as well as addressing a list of goals they have for themselves in-house. I think we as a community gave FarSight at least the entire first season before the gripes started! I'd also point out that if the difficulty of the table is too much, just play the Zen single player version which is as easy as TPA, but still has way better physics.

Well, that is great to hear that they are working on the flipper physics. I am willing to cut them plenty of slack. What am I supposed to do though? Should I just sit here with my mouth shut (and actually, they probably don't even read my posts here) and hope somebody else brings my "issues" to their attention? I'm just providing constructive criticism because I want the best product possible. I'm actually thrilled to hear this. Did you bring it up in a podcast? This is the first I've heard.

While I'm "griping"... I really wish they would bring the Williams tables (with the classic physics of course) to VR. In your interview with Mel, I got the impression that they weren't to thrilled about the idea at this point in time. I'm assuming that is purely a business decision (I'm guessing their efforts for FX2 VR didn't pay off as much as they'd hoped). But... it also seemed like he was balking on the idea because it would require a ton of work to bring in the whole "environment" for each machine like they did with the Pinball FX2 original machines. I understand that that would be a huge amount of work, but I say screw it - just put the virtual machine in an empty room. I couldn't care less about the environment around me, I just want the table itself in VR. I'm not going to be looking away from it. Or do what Farsight did in the original Williams Hall of Fame and just put all the machines in a virtual arcade that only needs developed once. I would run right out and buy and Oculus Rift or Vive if they announced this (currently only have a PSVR).

 

[shutyertrap]

Well, that is great to hear that they are working on the flipper physics. I am willing to cut them plenty of slack. What am I supposed to do though? Should I just sit here with my mouth shut (and actually, they probably don't even read my posts here) and hope somebody else brings my "issues" to their attention? I'm just providing constructive criticism because I want the best product possible. I'm actually thrilled to hear this. Did you bring it up in a podcast? This is the first I've heard.

While I'm "griping"... I really wish they would bring the Williams tables (with the classic physics of course) to VR. In your interview with Mel, I got the impression that they weren't to thrilled about the idea at this point in time. I'm assuming that is purely a business decision (I'm guessing their efforts for FX2 VR didn't pay off as much as they'd hoped). But... it also seemed like he was balking on the idea because it would require a ton of work to bring in the whole "environment" for each machine like they did with the Pinball FX2 original machines. I understand that that would be a huge amount of work, but I say screw it - just put the virtual machine in an empty room. I couldn't care less about the environment around me, I just want the table itself in VR. I'm not going to be looking away from it. Or do what Farsight did in the original Williams Hall of Fame and just put all the machines in a virtual arcade that only needs developed once. I would run right out and buy and Oculus Rift or Vive if they announced this (currently only have a PSVR).

No, you're right in that constructive criticism is needed. Maybe I'm having one of 'those' mornings

I know they are working on the flipper physics purely because we've mentioned things in the beta that essentially have gotten the response of "it's in the works, just not yet". Me and my putting various statements from various places together to create a solid bit of speculation that is by no means official news. But yeah, they are aware of the aiming and know it ties into the physics of the flippers

As for VR, I think it's just one of those things where they have so many other aspects they want to tackle first. I guarantee getting a mobile version of these tables going is of much higher priority. Once they've got all the issues addressed with the game that they need to address, I think then they'll start looking at VR. It is a lot of work though for a very niche customer base, but one they want to keep engaged, especially since they even came out with the VR collection for PS4

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

So if you walked up to a new pinball machine, do you throw a hissy because the 3x5 instruction card on the apron is lacking?

I'd throw a hissy fit if the rules hadn't been posted on rec.games.pinball already!!

If you want a real deep-dive into a table's rules, download the instruction manual for Wizard Of Oz (and I assume you can do the same for the other JJ tables). That's quite a read.

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

No, you're right in that constructive criticism is needed. Maybe I'm having one of 'those' mornings But yeah, they are aware of the aiming and know it ties into the physics of the flippers

Again, really glad to hear this news. I just want to see them correct things like this at the beginning, rather than getting 10 table packs in and saying that it would be way too much work to go back and fix things for all the already released machines (Farsight style). I'm very impressed so far at the amount of attention they are giving to the fans of their game and the lengths that they are willing to go to to address the problems that are brought up. I had a good time last weekend listening to several of your latest podcasts (the interview with Mel and the recap on the pack 2 announcement) while raking leaves. All that being said, if you could sneak a quick question or comment about the flipper physics in the next time you do an interview so we could get a definitive update, it would be greatly appreciated.

As for VR, I think it's just one of those things where they have so many other aspects they want to tackle first. I guarantee getting a mobile version of these tables going is of much higher priority. Once they've got all the issues addressed with the game that they need to address, I think then they'll start looking at VR. It is a lot of work though for a very niche customer base, but one they want to keep engaged, especially since they even came out with the VR collection for PS4

That's cool that it's getting a physical release. I didn't know that. Usually I would buy physical over digital (I'm actually not getting the PSVR until Santa comes) but since there is DLC for this that apparently won't be on the disc, I will end up going digital when I buy it. And I fully understand the priorities they are setting and I agree with them. Mobile IS more important now but I'm hoping something like the Oculus Quest will be at a low enough price point to attract players sooner than later. At $400, it's right at that console price range and could potentially bring a lot of people onboard. I'm sure it's powerful enough to run a pinball sim and would probably be a perfect system to run FX3 on.

 

[yespage]

There's also 1970's era Gottliebs. Some of the best EMs ever made. Plus great classic era Stern like Seawitch, Galaxy, Meteor, etc.
I'd be excited for many of those.
Not that I don't love many modern Stern pins. Those would be great as well.

I agree that a release like that would be great, but I don't know if there is enough demand for it, even within the pinball niche group. I bought Zaccaria when I saw how well that fed into my desire for 70's / 80's pinball design.

 

[yespage]

They are indeed working on improving the flipper physics. Unlike FarSight, Zen won't release a new iteration of something until they feel it is spot on. Considering they've released all of 1 table pack, it's amazing how little slack people are willing to cut them. They are still reacting to user feedback, as well as addressing a list of goals they have for themselves in-house. I think we as a community gave FarSight at least the entire first season before the gripes started! I'd also point out that if the difficulty of the table is too much, just play the Zen single player version which is as easy as TPA, but still has way better physics.

I think the big difference is people already bought the Farsight versions. So in buying the Zen, they are paying for the same table a second time, so they will have higher expectations, which isn't too unreasonable. The problem expands when trying to appease a large group of people within a small niche while trying to expand the user base.

 

[Colywobbles]

Yeah farsight sales were very rare for PS4!? Ive now tried fish tales etc, definitely different to PA, but still not convinced i'll bother. Ive got too many favourites in PA that we'll not get in FX3 and dont want end up with the same tables all over the place. Time will tell i guess.

Hey Andy offer still stands I have almost every table by FS and ditto with Zen. However since they released the Williams pack I have logged over 130hrs on those alone. TPA is now uninstalled! Maybe if they gave Arcooda at a decent price I would try them again but from now on it’s Zen all the way regardless if I have to purchase them all again they are easily worth the money. Remember You live less than 3 miles from me and I don’t bite so come play the new tables as they are meant to be played in a Virtual Pin and while here you free to try a couple of real ones being TZ, FH & hopefully MBr LE soon too.
Then you can make your mind up.
Ps I have PS4 version too.
Regards Col

 

[Pete]

So if you walked up to a new pinball machine, do you throw a hissy because the 3x5 instruction card on the apron is lacking?

Usually i hope im not first and see what the players before me do and try to figure out how multiball works. Sometimes i end up being really good the first try, sometimes i dont. Newest Zen one i played was Back to the Future, just seemed very unrealistic. Also got that gear vr pack with the castle one and a couple others, didnt like any of them. Way back on my xbox 360 i had the original zen and it was so bad i always just wrote them off as a lame company. I have pretty much memorized the instructions for every farsight released table and I have become VERY addicted to learning them. Sure you can look up rule sheets online but your never going to have such a clear understandable visual reference like farsight provides.

 

[Silverball67]

You´re right. The instructions on TPA were very good. But remember the Headline of the thread "FS must counterattack!".
That´ll be quit difficult with "strong Points" such as "we´ve got great instructions". By the way, mostly instructions for tables which are no longer available to buy (Williams/Bally). Older Gottlieb-tables dont´t need that focus on instructions so badly, cause their rulesets are not complex enough. Learning by doing is in some cases more fun than looking for instructions. I call that "exploring a table". But tastes are different.

A brand new revision of their engine, first class Stern-tables, challenges, online tournaments, a fair pricing and a improved communication with the community, that´s what FS needs imho to counterattack to ZEN and survive in digital pinball.

Otherwise ask Darwin.

 

[switch3flip]

There's also 1970's era Gottliebs. Some of the best EMs ever made. Plus great classic era Stern like Seawitch, Galaxy, Meteor, etc.
I'd be excited for many of those.
Not that I don't love many modern Stern pins. Those would be great as well.

Seawitch would have been a perfect release at this time, now that Stern just released the new Beatles pin that is based on Seawitch.