Flipper lag theory

[alexk3954]

I really don't understand this whole lag thing. I have played TPA A LOT, and am pretty decent if I do say so myself. I really don't notice the lag problem, I think the flippers are plenty responsive. I got my brother to play a game of ToM with me, and he said it felt like "the flippers are going a while after I press the button". As a side note he may not have been completely sober, but still, it was weird that we were playing the same game side by side, and one person complains of lag while the other does not notice it...

 

[BonzoGonzo]

i once played street fighter 3 third strike with a guy, whose tv was SO damn laggy (cca 17ms+) i couldn't believe it, yet he was claiming that there was no lag at all, becouse he didn't feel any... there was lag and it was freaking unplayable... couldn't react to most obvious stuff at all... like when dudely goes for a launch/sweep on your wake up? you can do a ton of things in response, the most n00b-like is a wakeup super for example... not on his tv though...

edit: should also add, that once i and a friend got kicked out of his place, becouse we complained about lag on his tv well, he just wouldn't have any of it

 

[TangoBunny]

I just registered to say I'm getting the flipper lag too, and it's not my television.

I play both Zen Pinball and Pinball Arcade on PS3, and Zen Pinball's flippers feel really snappy. The instant that I press the button, the flippers flip. In Pinball Arcade, there are times when I hit the flipper button as the ball is nearing the tip of the flipper, only to watch the ball casually roll down the drain while my flipper flips immediately afterwards. This all happens in like... a fraction of a second, but a fraction of a second of lag is enough to lose balls frequently, unless you actively flip slightly early to compensate for the lag.

I should also note that I play a ton of other games on the same TV (including Rhythm Heaven on Wii, which is a game based around exact timing, and lots of other PS3 games that have precise timing, Zen Pinball being the most obvious one), and there is no lag. It's only The Pinball Arcade that does this. If it helps, I'm playing the latest version released in Europe... which I hear is about five pinball packs behind, as only the first table pack is released here. >.>

 

[brakel]

i once played street fighter 3 third strike with a guy, whose tv was SO damn laggy (cca 17ms+) i couldn't believe it, yet he was claiming that there was no lag at all, becouse he didn't feel any... there was lag and it was freaking unplayable... couldn't react to most obvious stuff at all... like when dudely goes for a launch/sweep on your wake up? you can do a ton of things in response, the most n00b-like is a wakeup super for example... not on his tv though...

edit: should also add, that once i and a friend got kicked out of his place, becouse we complained about lag on his tv well, he just wouldn't have any of it

Thats very interesting but the real topic here is the lag that we only experience on TPA. If I had a problem like the guy in your story I'd be having it in every game where timing is important.

 

[BonzoGonzo]

Thats very interesting but the real topic here is the lag that we only experience on TPA. If I had a problem like the guy in your story I'd be having it in every game where timing is important.

my point is, that some people don't notice the lag at all, even if there is one

 

[pinbot-76]

If you are not experiencing PS3 flipper lag consider yourself lucky. It may not affect all users, but it is a real problem.

I would also like to say that the pressurized flippers on BK using PS3 bumpers compounds the problem. Oh, I didn't totally mash the bumper? Top flippers aren't flipping when I need them.

 

[ER777]

I play listening to my AM radio (SPORTS) as it takes the pressure off the HURRY UP shots and just PLAY.
Yes PS3 controllers are blue tooth and I dont have a cell but I could try my bt headpiece to see if that makes a difference but arnt people having lag plugged in too? Need a chart like table release except users with lag and perametors for scenarios.
USER NAME/ controller-stock,AM plugged-unplugged/ TV- refresh 60-120,/ PS3 slim,fat
there might be a pattern to narrow this down.
I'm frustrated for PS3 users and I dont have lag.

This is exactly what Farsight should be doing at this point, gathering information. There are a lot of theories right now and countless variables to consider. If they have reviewed their PS3 TPA code and nothing is jumping out at them, then they need to start gathering data to look for trends. Their lack of comments on the issue is probably the most troubling part to me, I'd really like to hear their thoughts about it as well.

 

[aagstn]

I'm so glad I discovered this discussion because I thought I was crazy. I've been exclusively playing the Xbox 360 version and never noticed lag. I bought the PS3 version because I was tired of waiting for Black Knight and Creature on 360 and was shocked at how unplayable the tables were. The weird thing is I have no lag at all with Zen Pinball 2 on the PS3 even when playing in 3D mode. This is purely a Pinball Arcade issue as I have never noticed lag with any other PS3 games. I have a Sharp Aquos and have it set to game mode. The more I play the more I adjust to it, but the lag is very frustrating and will drive me back to the 360 version until this is fixed despite the fact I would prefer the play the PS3 versions since they have 3 trophies per table.

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

Just picked up a PS3 today for playing blu-rays, and of course I had to try the newest TPA dlc first, then do a side by side comparison. First off, the PS3 has much much better anti aliasing. On the 360, even set to my favorite views, everything on the upper playfield looks muddled- (lacking detail) and fuzzy with slight jaggies. On PS3 everything is nice, crisp and clean looking- especially on the camera fly-by on Theater of Magic. Additionally on the PS3 the graphics seem a bit more glowing. All the lighting seems much more vibrant compared to the 360. However, the biggest difference graphically, seems to be the ball itself. On the PS3 the reflections on the ball seem very crisp and detailed but the reflection on the surface of the table is more dark and shadowy with only a very subtle reflection, where as the ball on the 360 looks a bit rougher with subltle jaggedness, but the ball reflection on the table looks glassy and mirrored. I much prefer the 360 ball because it feels more like the silverball is gliding across a super polished surface, but the difference is really minor. And finally (and on topic), when I first started playing I was using the bottom analog shoulder buttons, and at first, I experienced major lag, almost to the point of it being unplayable (like many of you have detailed). But after switching the the top digital shoulder buttons, while they are much less comfortable to play with, yield very snappy results. To my hands and eyes, the difference is night and day. Again, let me preface that by saying, that I first went through all of the video settings on both the PS3 and my Panasonic plasma thoroughly- noting the ps3 itself has many settings that I was unfamiliar with until i looked them up. But truth be told, playing them side by side using the analog buttons on the 360 and the top digital buttons on a brand spanking new PS3 there was absolutely no difference to be detected- other than superficial graphical differences. With that said, I've yet to decide which system I'll use for playing TPA in the future. I definitely prefer the comfortable shape and form of the 360 controller over the dual shock 3, but I'm sure I can get used to the difference. Anyhow, don't know if that helps anyone, just wanted to share my observations. Oh, and I'm not sure if any hardware differences exist between the newer model PS3 and older ones, but the one I got is the newest model with the cheaper sliding drive door- not too keen on the quality of that, but as long as I keep it closed, and the dust out, I'm sure there's no difference.

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

When I play the PS3 version, all of the tables are incredibly dark and I experience some pretty bad flipper lag.

I'll also say that until I set the PS3 color settings correctly that all the black levels were crushed and that the whites were blown out. But after turning off a lot of the display settings, and setting my TV's hdmi setting to auto, it looks great!

So how many of you with flipper lag are playing with the upper or lower shoulder buttons? On my brand new system and controller, the difference between which button I use is immediately noticeable.

 

[shutyertrap]

Just wanted to correct one thing about the Sony controller. All the buttons are analogue, including the top shoulder buttons. Or if I'm wrong about being analogue, they're pressure sensitive (but how to do that digitally?) Anyways, interesting hearing what the differences were like.

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

from the wiki page:
Input

Motion sensing (6 axes)
2× Analog sticks (10-bit precision)
2× Analog triggers
(L2, R2)
6× Pressure sensitive buttons
(Triangle, Circle, Cross, Square, L1, R1)

"all of the buttons and even the digital pad offer analog support. This means that the d-pad, the four face buttons and the four shift buttons are all pressure sensitive and have 255 degrees of sensitivity."

I actually didn't know that, but does it mean that they ARE analog or they offer analog support? Anyhow, the top shoulder buttons feel and respond very differently than the pressure sensitive bottom buttons.

 

[shutyertrap]

from the wiki page:
Anyhow, the top shoulder buttons feel and respond very differently than the pressure sensitive bottom buttons.

Absolutely. I tried using L2,R2 and hated it because it felt like I was playing with a sponge on my fingertips! It wasn't the controller that was lagging, it was my lazy fingers. So it's been top buttons for me all along, and even when the 2 stage flipper was introduced, it wasn't a problem for me.

 

[Baintz]

The L2/R2 buttons on the Dualshock 3 are an abomination, and I can't believe the PS3 has been around for as long as it has without a better version released. It's almost as if Sony made an effort to differentiate themselves from Microsoft by having triggers that bend the other way. On a lot of games it isn't a huge deal, but on any FPS or driving game it is incredibly annoying as it's very easy for your finger to slide down the trigger.

I bought some of those attachable triggers but they might have sucked even harder. The trigger was far too big and on occasion would pinch the skin on my middle finger. I lasted about 20 mins before I threw them in the bin.

 

[TangoBunny]

I get the flipper lag when...

- I use the L1/R1 buttons
- The controllers are plugged in
- The control response is instant on every other PS3 game
- The control response is instant on Zen Pinball 2 when using the L1/R1 buttons

It's not that I'm using 'a laggy tv' or 'a more squishy button', it's that Zen Pinball has an instant response for the flippers, whereas The Pinball Arcade has laggy flippers under the exact same conditions.

 

[Baintz]

Did the update (version 1.02 I think for EU users) solve any of the lag problems? I used to have annoying lag but at the time of the update, I also switched to 720p from 1080i (I don't have a full HD TV so it's not like I have to sacrifice 1080p) and it definitely made a difference. First game I played after switching was ToM, and trying for the skill shot on the trunk from the plunge I was way off, flipped way too early as previously I had been compensating for the lag. I play TPA most days on my PS3, tried it on my housemates 360 today and can barely notice any difference anymore. It used to be glaringly obvious prior to switching.

 

[smbhax]

Yesterday I played some Pinball Arcade in the afternoon, doing pretty well by my standards, then went out and spent the evening at an actual pinball arcade (a retro one I hadn't known about before, yay!). Got back, flipped on some Pinball Arcade, and I was swinging late in the first game. Next time I hit that arcade I'll have to insist they introduce a frame or two of flipper lag into their tables so they don't throw off my PA play!

 

[ScotchYeti]

As Baintz has mentioned, switching from 1080i to 720p can make a difference and should be tried first.

If this does not fix the issue, it's worth to plug in the controller instead of using it in wireless mode. If this doesn't work either I have to say bad luck, it won't get any better unless Farsight tweaks something in the software.

 

[ROTTEN]

Yesterday I played some Pinball Arcade in the afternoon, doing pretty well by my standards, then went out and spent the evening at an actual pinball arcade (a retro one I hadn't known about before, yay!). Got back, flipped on some Pinball Arcade, and I was swinging late in the first game. Next time I hit that arcade I'll have to insist they introduce a frame or two of flipper lag into their tables so they don't throw off my PA play!

Yeah, it's very frustrating even after playing a few rounds of ZEN and switching back to TPA you can notice a huge difference. At times it's almost enough to stop playing TPA all together.

 

[smbhax]

I switched down to 720, still felt a slight lack of responsiveness--and had a ball pop through the wall--and switched down to 480. 480 looks unimaginably awful! But now I can actually do things I've been seeing the pros do in pinball.org videos, like live catches. Doubled my Gorgar score in the first game session after switching to 480.

It's odd because the frame rate in 1080p doesn't seem slow, but it's so much less responsive in the ways that really matter. I wonder if they're dropping the physics sampling rate in order to keep the rendering frame rate up. Anyway I sure hope they do manage to make a significant performance increase soon, because until then I'm gonna have to keep playing in this eye-gouging Super Nintendo mode. 8|