If FS is limited to the number of B/W tables, why waste them?

[Fuseball]

The thing with pinball is, no matter how good you are, you always loose at the end. In a videogame you fight your way through levels to ultimately get to the end where you fight the big bad boss and win the game. Perhaps the feeling of satisfaction is greater for some.

That's a modern interpretation of a videogame. The arcade games that were blamed for pinball's decline in popularity were as open-ended as pinball. Often it was only a software bug (Pac-man's game-ending split screen), fatigue or power failure that ended a game. For all but the very best players, videogames always beat you in the end.

Of course, both videogames and pinball have now died at the hands of gambling machines which offer the operator a far more guaranteed income. It's only really the handful of operators and arcade owners that love pinball like we do that will put them out on site. If it's about making money then they will go for gambling machines every time.

 

[brakel]

If pinball machines were only designed to make money, then pinball never would've boomed like it did. Pinball machines had to fun too, otherwise people wouldn't keep coming back.

Also, it's debatable that TPA's recreation makes them more fun. It all depends on your definition of fun. To me, a lot of the fun of pinball is the adrenaline rush I get from trying to keep the ball alive. Quite a bit of that is lost when they make things too easy (such is the case with Scared Stiff and TZ). To me, long marathon sessions just aren't as fun.

And lastly, I don't think you can blame hardcore pinball fans for the "death" of pinball. If you look back at the 60's and 70's, pinball was huge, and by huge I mean HUGE...there were tons of casual players (and also tons of female players, my mom was one of them). The machines were hard in terms of difficulty, but people didn't care because it was fun and because it was cutting edge at the time....that was all before pinball didn't have to compete with video games. As soon as video games started booming, pinball machines became more and more neglected by players (and owners). Arcades that were once filled to the brim with pinball machines were suddenly forced to make room for video games because that was the new rage that all the kids wanted. Sure, pinball pressed on, but it began to steadily dwindle in popularity from that day forward. Through the 80's, it was still quite popular, but it couldn't hold a candle to video games in terms of demand. The 90's saw pinball machines that were more high tech than ever, but most common arcades only had a few pinball machines because kids simply weren't playing them as much as video games.

So I think it's pretty clear that videos games had much more to do to the so-called "death" of pinball...which is why it's kind of ironic (and very cool) that video games such as TPA and Zen are helping to revitalize it.

The "big dance" between player and machine was what really made a game profitable and fun. A time and place where you feel at one with the machine and you're getting every shot but you don't quite get everything. You think you were so close to getting every target and lighting the special so you drop another quarter in before the guy who had put his quarter on the bottom of the glass during your game can protest and you go again. One more dance with the pretty lady and you'll score. One more puff and you'll get super high. One more quarter and you'll be special when lit...just one more...

 

[superballs]

I don't really see how they are wasting tables anyway. Every release seems to bring something to the table. Even if it's initially not that exciting, usually the more obscure tables get most of my playtime. Especially the short play EMs and early SS's

 

[Sumez]

That's a modern interpretation of a videogame. The arcade games that were blamed for pinball's decline in popularity were as open-ended as pinball. Often it was only a software bug (Pac-man's game-ending split screen), fatigue or power failure that ended a game. For all but the very best players, videogames always beat you in the end.

Truth indeed!
Even games like Pacman had some arbitrary sense of progression though, with the first bunch of stages all getting progressively more difficult. Pinball, however they tried, always had the player at the same state. Sure, they could simulate progression through a set of modes leading to the wizard mode, etc., but physically the game will always remain the same, with the same shots on the table, and the same constant risks. In a game of pinball, every shot you make puts you at a risk, and just as easily as you can keep the same ball going for 5 to 10 minutes, you might be able to lose all three of them in a matter of seconds. I don't think I ever played a video game that was able to mess you up like that, without it being a really, really terrible game.
It is wonderful, really.

 

[Fuseball]

That's a very valid point. The tension and difficulty in a pinball is constant or only ramped up by the player's nerves as they realise they are playing a really good ball or game. It is possible that pinball's inability to change its difficulty made it look unexciting and lacking in dynamics compared to videogames.

Personally, I like arcade videogames that get difficult fast, have a lot of randomness, and that keep up a pinball-like intensity (Defender, Robotron, Sinistar). Short bursts of adrenalin gaming.

 

[KithKanan]

Personally, I like arcade videogames that get difficult fast, have a lot of randomness, and that keep up a pinball-like intensity (Defender, Robotron, Sinistar). Short bursts of adrenalin gaming.

Shocking that all the games you mention were created by a certain pinball company.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Truth indeed!
Even games like Pacman had some arbitrary sense of progression though, with the first bunch of stages all getting progressively more difficult. Pinball, however they tried, always had the player at the same state. Sure, they could simulate progression through a set of modes leading to the wizard mode, etc., but physically the game will always remain the same, with the same shots on the table, and the same constant risks.

Actually, pinball never really explored the possibilities of physically changing the playfield. Assuming I can ever get Sin off the ground (real life is being very dramatic lately...), we'll have a chance to see how it works there with the track-moveable flippers and self-adjusting outlanes.

 

[Richard B]

Would be nice to get another video Interview soon to hear from Roger what his role has been in the company
because I do not trust it when I hear stuff like "Sharpe is also the guy who told FS to intentionally make the tables easier"
no matter who says it(no offense Richard). It is just to vague. What did he say to make easier? Randomness from kickouts?, general physics?, operator adjustments etc, etc.
I doubt he talks with them before each table release (that is Josh's job).

This information came from a podcast interview with Bobby King. As for his role in the company, no idea. He used to be a designer, but only made one table for Williams (Barracora), one table (his first) for Stern, and the rest was for a company called Game Plan. I also don't know exactly how he recommended the tables be altered to make them easier. Interestingly enough, he's going to be the guest speaker and an arcade expo I'll be attending in two weeks. If I get the chance, I'll ask him personally.

I don't really see how they are wasting tables anyway. Every release seems to bring something to the table. Even if it's initially not that exciting, usually the more obscure tables get most of my playtime. Especially the short play EMs and early SS's

That would be true if they had an unlimited number of tables to recreate. As it stands, there is a flat number, after which they cannot make any more. So, if you have limited numbers, and you choose stuff like Space Shuttle over FT, JY, or WH20, you're losing good tables for bad.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

That would be true if they had an unlimited number of tables to recreate. As it stands, there is a flat number, after which they cannot make any more. So, if you have limited numbers, and you choose stuff like Space Shuttle over FT, JY, or WH20, you're losing good tables for bad.

That assumes that the license isn't renegotiated. Since the original license was negotiated before anyone knew how TPA was going to do in the market, both parties may have agreed on a relatively small number of tables so that if TPA bombed, both sides could disentangle themselves relatively easily without a long-term commitment. But if both parties are happy with TPA and want to do more tables, I see no reason why the license couldn't be renewed for a second batch of tables.

 

[superballs]

This information came from a podcast interview with Bobby King. As for his role in the company, no idea. He used to be a designer, but only made one table for Williams (Barracora), one table (his first) for Stern, and the rest was for a company called Game Plan. I also don't know exactly how he recommended the tables be altered to make them easier. Interestingly enough, he's going to be the guest speaker and an arcade expo I'll be attending in two weeks. If I get the chance, I'll ask him personally.

That would be true if they had an unlimited number of tables to recreate. As it stands, there is a flat number, after which they cannot make any more. So, if you have limited numbers, and you choose stuff like Space Shuttle over FT, JY, or WH20, you're losing good tables for bad.

There are still a bunch of tables that they will be able to do.
Couple that with the potential for renegotiation and I'm sure that FS will be doing this as long as they are making money.
Personally I'll buy every table they release because even if a table is not appealing to me at first it usually offers me something worthwhile later on.

 

[ATOMIC BOY]

why are they making tables like Black Knight, Space Shuttle, and Gorgar,…

I personally bought PA specifically for Gorgar.

 

[Sean]

And I'll happily take Space Shuttle over something like T2, so I'd hardly call that a "wasted slot" either. I'm sure we all have different faves so frankly I find this entire thread a bit presumptuous and unnecessary.

 

[superballs]

I personally bought PA specifically for Gorgar.

^ This

And I'll happily take Space Shuttle over something like T2, so I'd hardly call that a "wasted slot" either. I'm sure we all have different faves so frankly I find this entire thread a bit presumptuous and unnecessary.

^And This

No matter what tables they release they are going to miss out on tables that someone wanted.
Quite frankly, Gorgar is an awesome table.
Black Knight is an awesome table.
Space Shuttle? Who knows, it could be awesome.

I think if they release T2 it would be a wasted slot, but I'm sure that some people are salivating over it and it really does belong in the collection since it's got it's place in pinball history.
Though, frankly, it reminds me of the Corkscrew at Cedar Point (Ohio US). Had the record for most inversions when it was built (3) but the entire coaster was: Drop you down a hill, loop, half helix, corkscrew, corkscrew, small floater hill, station.

Not really all that great.

 

[pezpunk]

it's probably in the cellarwhere the light has gone (as had the stairs) in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on it that says "Beware of the Leopard".

well heck why don't they just work out exactly how improbable it is that they find a pristine Centaur, feed that into their Improbability Generator, give it a nice hot cup of tea, and turn it on?

 

[Robert Hunt]

I played a "pristine" Centaur in Fort Lauderdale just two days ago that blew me right out of the water (sandwiched as it was between Fathom and Seawitch.) The art truly WAS pristine, and the table played fast and strong with all hardware in excellent shape. But the SOUND this game makes is even more impressive than the striking backglass. I'm just dying to HEAR it some more!

And who knows? Maybe it's fer sale. The owner is listed here:

http://www.floridaape.org/games.htm

 

[Bowflex]

Jove time would be a waste. That is one table that would be 99.999% agreed on.

 

[grashopper]

Jove time would be a waste. That is one table that would be 99.999% agreed on.

I would happily take Jive Time over Central Park

 

[Gorgar]

Jove time would be a waste. That is one table that would be 99.999% agreed on.

I love Jive Time and I am actually upset that they don't want to do this one. I actually purchased the wii version of the Williams collection just for this table, even though I already had the ps2 version. I wasn't really interested in Sorceror at the time because there weren't enough rainbow afros in it. But now I like Sorceror too.

 

[ER777]

I really hope Sorcerer comes to TPA eventually, I loved it in PHoF.

 

[Sean]

I also love Sorcerer, but I'm afraid I wouldn't miss Jive Time (though I was very excited when I initially unlocked it) or any of the remaining Gottlieb collection tables aside from Aces High. Honestly they could have skipped Genie as well, though I'm not sorry I bought it.

Nevertheless I wouldn't argue that Farsight shouldn't release one in favour of another; every table has its fans.