Is it just me who prefers Stern tables ?

[PET3R]

I do understand lot of players play pinball because of various reasons - funny call outs, art, audio, music...

What I play pinball for are 3 simple reasons - deep rule set, beating high score, feel good shots. I absolutely do not care about jokes which for me quickly becomes repetitive, theme, art, toys or any other features.

More and more Stern tables starting to have interesting, complex and deep strategies and I am starting to prefer them over the 1990's tables.
There might be just few exceptions like Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness but I have feeling that in my case even AFM will be soon replaced by Spiderman.

Nostalgia - we find this everywhere. Cars, music, computer games and in any technology. We always get attached to something that came up with something revolutionary and even though it had been perfected we still can't get away from it. Even though new Ferrari's Lamborghini's are much faster, more sleek, elegant and better looking, someone will still claim that the old models are the best. There is always a big discussion where players claim that computer games nowadays are nothing close to what they used to be in 90's even though the have much deeper game play, stunning graphics and more realistic atmosphere. When something comes for the first time it leaves a strong experience in us which is hard to forget.
I am wondering whether this is also the case of pinball. There are lot of players who will play pinballs from pre and post 90's claiming these are the best tables. I think the Adams Family is quite nice example. It is a table that revolutionised pinball and because of this reason it ranks very high in the ratings. You will have third of the players claiming this is the best table ever made and having a strong bond with it. It has already been perfected by TZ and there are many more tables that are more deeper and more fun than TAF (AFM, MB, MM, SPP, LOTR, Spidey ...), however as the TAF was the first table to make pinball big it is very difficult to detach from it and forget it.
I feel that pre 90's tables have been perfected by post 90's tables and that is why they are much less played and personally I do not give them any attention. The same way I feel that Stern is taking over 90's tables by pushing the rules and strategies even further and it will be probably just matter of time when I won't be playing any other table apart from Stern.

Am I the only one who feels and think this way ? Please let me know.

 

[jonesjb]

So when you ask this, you really mean 'Is it just me that prefers NEW tables?' Correct?

Or do you also mean Stern tables like Seawitch, Cheetah, and Viper? And what about Wizard of Oz made by Jersey Jack?

I wouldn't try to distill the better tables down to one brand. It really comes down to the game designers and the technology available for them to realize their vision. Many designers such as Lawlor and Ritchie are now designing for Stern, this is where the inspiration comes from. There are many amazing tables at Stern, like LOTR or Spider-Man, but I'd be hesitant about making the connection between more complicated rules and a better machine. Some of the Newer stern machines still come across as flat and boring to me; compare the Williams Indiana Jones to the Stern one to see what I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. Complicated rules need to be more than hitting ramps in in a complicated dance to progress through a longer storyline progression.

In my opinion, a good rule set need not be complex (yes it helps), but more importantly offer the 1+1=3 creative interaction of rules within a game, that offers different strategies for advancing and gives the game that 'just one more' factor. It's the fine nuances like parking a ball in Shadow to build the Jackpot, or risk reward of using modes to build up the Wizard mode in STTNG. It's the dirty pool in AFM, to kill 2 UFOs progressively or even better capture the ball to hit more jackpots. It's the risk of building up the swamp value in Addams Family and carrying it to the next ball, vs aiming for thing. It's the stacking hurry ups in MM. I could go on and on.

 

[jonesjb]

Anyone agree? I can't be the only one that thinks this.

 

[sneakynotsneaky]

Yes, I agree. Compare Stern Star Trek to ST:TNG for example. It's absolutely no contest. ST:TNG has a creative layout, a good variety of different challenges and styles, some good stop-start moments in the gameplay... the Stern Star Trek is, like many of their tables, just monotonous. Occasionally one gets a brief pause on activating something, but then right away we're just back to banging at whatever ramp or target we've been told corresponds to a point in the storyline.

I actually quite like WWE, Monopoly, Spider-Man to play around on. But for a satisfying pinball experience I need something quirky and human-feeling, and modern Sterns too often comes up short. I'm one of those deviants who actually likes Gottliebs, for the same reason.

 

[Zaphod77]

I'm not a fan of sterns in general.

While i agree some of them are truly great (simpsons, and lord of the rings, with family guy in third place, mainly because of the mini pinball) there's something that just feels wrong about them. Often they seem rather soulless. I can't put my finger on what's wrong with them, but many of them just don't feel right. the feel of their flippers really annoys me. The sega ones before south park (well besides x files) seemed better to me. Adn data east before sega was much better in my opinion.

But seems it's just me.

 

[sneakynotsneaky]

A big problem is that the raison d'etre of their tables isn't a pinball table, but a license. The pinheads get the "deep" rulesets, the arcade crowd gets pictures of a familiar intellectual property, rinse and repeat. The pinball table is an art form of its own, but the modern Stern is like a cheap cover version. No creativity, no originality, no art required. Compare learning to play WH20, Earthshaker, Banzai Run, hell even something like LCA, to learning to play Spider-Man, LOTR, Star Trek. There are just so few surprises, because of the familiarity of the themes and the sameness of the pins.

The last time I had what I would consider a true pinball experience from a Stern was Wrestlemania, for two reasons. First, it's a theme that I have no inherent interest in and so every visual and sound was novel. Second, because of a creative playfield that I could clearly connect to both the pinball goals and what I was learning about the theme.

 

[HotHamBoy]

There are some recent Sterns i like to play and there's a lot that I don't. For me, a large part of pinball's appeal is that it's interactive pop-art. Even older tables based on licenses used hand-drawn art, original voice performances and creative implementation to craft a table design with an appealing interpretation that could stand apart from (often) weak or forgettable source material. Stern's tables feel very workman-like, a means to and end, slapping on generic photo assets and cheap-looking figurines and repeating the same garish graphic templates. They tend to repeat a lot of safe concepts, inserting a central playfield gimmick. A lot of older games did this but they were much more attractive in their kitsch.

I've been playing a lot of Monopoly because it's convenient. Over time I've really come to appreciate it and the way it interprets Monopoly as a pinball game. Metallica is great, probably one of their best. So is LotR. But I can tell you, having played Transformers, WWE, 24, Sopranos, Avengers, Playboy... Ehhh... Not good. Spider-man, Iron Man and Batman are fun but ugly. I don't like Mustang or Walking Dead either. I need to play more KISS and AC/DC to decide how I feel about them but I've had fun so far. Star Trek is ok. Family Guy is kind of boring. Pirates is fine, but nothing special. I've never seen a Ripley's or Tycoon or Buck Hunter.

But even when the table is fun they always look junky. They just make garbage-looking games, they're about 50/50 on the good play.

 

[Dedpop]

A big problem is that the raison d'etre of their tables isn't a pinball table, but a license. The pinheads get the "deep" rulesets, the arcade crowd gets pictures of a familiar intellectual property, rinse and repeat. The pinball table is an art form of its own, but the modern Stern is like a cheap cover version. No creativity, no originality, no art required. Compare learning to play WH20, Earthshaker, Banzai Run, hell even something like LCA, to learning to play Spider-Man, LOTR, Star Trek. There are just so few surprises, because of the familiarity of the themes and the sameness of the pins.

There are some recent Sterns i like to play and there's a lot that I don't. For me, a large part of pinball's appeal is that it's interactive pop-art. Even older tables based on licenses used hand-drawn art, original voice performances and creative implementation to craft a table design with an appealing interpretation that could stand apart from (often) weak or forgettable source material. Stern's tables feel very workman-like, a means to and end, slapping on generic photo assets and cheap-looking figurines and repeating the same garish graphic templates. They tend to repeat a lot of safe concepts, inserting a central playfield gimmick. A lot of older games did this but they were much more attractive in their kitsch.
But even when the table is fun they always look junky. They just make garbage-looking games, they're about 50/50 on the good play.

Same thought here for me.
I'm ok with AC/DC, The Rolling Stones, Monopoly, Playboy, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Ripley, The Simpsons, Elvis, NBA, Metallica though.

 

[Nate]

While I enjoy a wide variety of pins from the system 11 era thru the present I too have found that most post y2k tables seem to lack heart and that feeling that most of our now considered to be classic late 1990's tables that made us feel a certain way whether it be the need to one up each other and exploit the table for the maximum score possible or just to satisfy the human desire to discover and cater to that curious feeling that I often got when i got to play a new table, each one was its own little world that I knew nothing about, what is this world? Whats a Funhouse got to discover? whats this madness from midevil times or or this earthshaking highspeed whirlwind attack on the circus of voltaire on the black rose as we get this monster bashing show on the road with rudy's siblings Ted and Carlene Carter as they get caught mousin around with a pack of bad cats, do you guys see it yet??? YESSSS thats it! They were all ORIGINAL THEMES and each its own little reality in which it contains a bunch of fun secrets sounds lights and feel good shots and we knew NOTHING about the history of these worlds and it was all brand new like the first time we shot some idiot into space or the first time a kid sees disneyland, and i know what your thinking now and its T2 and TAF right what about them? so with the obvious exception of the occcasional terminator 2 or demolition man dredd weapon 3 from the crypt which at the time were amazing games because not only was the technology fueling these games brand new these movies were the first time we had ever seen any kind of HQ digital special effects and rendered cgi used in movies was so freaking groundbreaking and just GOOD it was also the first time that before our very eyes the t2000 morphed seemlessly into its victims and the action part of action movies became visually indecipherable between fiction and non fiction if you were to just cut a sequence out of one of these films and watch it by itself who was to say it wasnt something that just happened somewhere, i dunno about you guys but that nuke type thing goin off cyberdine industries where it shows the city get destroyed and the fire consumes the woman holding onto the fence as she turns to ashes scene in terminator scared the piss out of me (and i was 12 years old!!) and this concept was still very exciting to us so In my not so humble opinion whereas today i dont think that scene would phase most 5 year olds because that type of thing has been rehashed and redone so many times, i think alot of the charm of licensed pins from that time period was just that those type of realistic fictional worlds like the original pin themes were still new to us which is also the reason i feel like almost everyone comes to the same conclusion about what newer Stern games we all enjoy today, LOTR was so epic that i dont think there had really been a movie world brought into reality with impact and fan dedication since star wars, and then obviously all the now very popular music pins are all as i see them original themes with game modes based around songs we know and in some cases love being brought to life in their own little world, I love metallica and acdc and even some of guns and roses music when in reality non of these songs were ever really presented as an interactive fantasy world comprised of physical elements that represent song names and album cover art and even band members themselves, getting to launch metal rocks at mick jaggers face is the ultimate orignal concept for me as im only 33 years old and could give a crap about the stones (no offense to anyone who loves them, keith richards is the best guitar playing corpse to ever take the stage!) and i really dont know anything about them so that to me made that game a totally original theme with a better than usual (sorry chris granner no offense) altho to me unfamiliar soundtrack which fueled my violent attack on a horrible looking man straddling a microphone stand which to me as a stranger to the stones made this a very interesting fantasy world for me to explore.....oh crap i have to go i have been rambling for so long i am almost late for work (i dont really have a job) i gotta go!! if you read all this pat yourself on the back and then go bang your head against a metallica pinball while you listen to barbie girl on repeat until you forget all the crap i just stuffed your brains random access memory with before it saves to your hard drive and the brain cells are forever wasted. oh dont be so uptight people, i dont like me either im a terrible person.....-nate

 

[Nate]

and yes i know most of this is just gibberish and incoherent rambling, ive been up all nite drinking whiskey and snorting cocaine off of my whirlwind machine I thought it was saturday nite last nite not monday i totally forgot i have to go drive a bus full of high school kids on a field trip now! wish me luck~

 

[Dedpop]

snorting cocaine off of my whirlwind machine

 

[jonesjb]

Pet3r, I understand you are questioning nostalgia as being the driving factor in preference of earlier machines. But can you outline why you think Sterns are better?

 

[HotHamBoy]

@Deadpop I totally forgot about The Simpsons, shame on me! That's definitely their best table. From art, design, and sound package it's their best work.

And to OP, nostalgia is definitely not the driving force. A lot of the older tables are just more fun and a lot cooler. I'm 30 but I've only been playing pinball for 2 years. I find something to like from every era of pinball. Fact is, Stern's tables are just generally mediocre. They don't really have any innovative ideas. Play Wizard of Oz and then go play a Stern from the last couple years. By compariaon it feels like they aren't even trying. For the record, I actually do really like a Stern if the package comes together ala Simpsons, Metallica and Monopoly. I also think the old wide-body Sterns are really cool, even though they aren't necessarily amazing in gameplay.

BTW, that Game of Thrones art package is embarrassing.

 

[TNT]

 

[TNT]

I am certainly not a pinball purist but I enjoy a lot of the early 2000 and SAM-era Sterns. Some fun stuff there. But that doesn't make me not want to play the great tables from the '80s and '90s.

Now that I have ticked off most of the board I'll also add most of the pre-1982ish tables don't do anything for me. To each their own. But I find them boring most of the time.

 

[Nate]

wrong em boyo! someone got the whirlwind joke that absolutely rocks the casbah! i thought that one may have just spanish bombed but it would appear that at least you good sir arent too busy workin for the clampdown to know that rudeme cant fail, god i love puns when im wasted, playing with words are definitely my ringing noise to which i will answer london's calling to tell me that altho im a cardcheat that i just sat here and typed all this crap about the clash and then thought for a half a damn second that all of these references are titles of songs off of a different clash album than the ()*&$T)W(*&@#%(&*W&$%( ok to bed for real i've become worthless to the point of wordless

 

[Dedpop]

Stay Free.

 

[Kolchak357]

Pick any era, designer, or manufacturer and you will find very good pins and duds. Find the ones you love and enjoy the hell out of them, be it a Metallica, a Monster Bash, or a Slick Chick. We are very lucky that so many pins, with so many styles, have been created.

On a personal note I enjoy a great many of the modern Stern pins. For the most part they have enough entertainment for the beginner (fun toys + an easy to achieve multiball), while still being deep enough to keep the interest of more advanced players. It's a tough line to walk for a pinball design.

 

[TNT]

For the most part they have enough entertainment for the beginner (fun toys + an easy to achieve multiball)

Ouch. This is probably me.

 

[David Pannozzo]

I'm throwing my 2 cents in their, don't feel bad TNT, I'm not a very good Pinball Player. I've been playing Pinball since The Addam's Family came out, so mid 80's to EM's are probably the last Pinball Machines you'd see me playing (except for Xenon, and Fathom). Otherwise I like System 11 games up to Stern's Game Of Thrones to Jersey Jack's The Hobbit. so system 11 games I want in hear that aren't in here are Mousin' Around, Bad Cats, Jokerz, Fire!, Bally's Gameshow, Truck Stop, Banzai Run, Swords Of Fury, Radical, I know theirs many more, but my brain just went dead. About Stern Tables I want in TPA are Sharkey's Shootout, Monopoly, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Elvis, Simpson's Pinball Party, Lord Of The Rings, NASCAR, Pirates Of The Caribean, Family Guy (One of my Favorites, not Shrek sorry), Spiderman, Batman, Wheel Of Fortune, CSI, 24, Tron Legacy, Big Buck Hunter Pro, I'm not into hard rock but I want AC/DC, Metallica, and Kiss. The newer ones I didn't mention are Mustang, WWF Wrestlemania, The Walking Dead and Game Of Thrones, I love those games and hope to play them next Friday at Freeplay Florida in Orlando. I know I forgot a couple, it was either I don't like it or forgot to add it, well I'm done rambling. Yes I do like all 90's Williams and Bally games, a few Gottlieb/Premier games, Data East/Sega games, Capcom games, I like Pinball so their aren't too many I don't like except the early 80's and EM Pinball Games, I am 46, so Chow for Now.