Is TPA alone enough for you, or are you also buying into Zen’s Williams app?

[meanpinball]

It really wasn't much of an issue until I played a couple of FX3 tables and noticed how much better the sound quality is.

In retrospect, its probably for the better that Zen acquired the license (by hook or by crook I suppose).

 

[wilbers]

TPA could've grabbed the music etc from the ROM but chose not to. They felt recording from the speakers was more "authentic".

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Did Farsight actually say that at some point?

 

[Rayder]

I tend to prefer TPA simply because there are more recreations in the app than what Zen has now. I figure it will be a long time before Zen hits 100 real-life table recreations.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Did Farsight actually say that at some point?

I believe so, yes. They had the tables physically on location, after all. It was a conscious decision to not emulate the sound.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[shutyertrap]

I was trying to find the podcast we did with Norman Stepansky (TPA audio engineer) that addressed this, but it was prior to our YouTube days. He went into it with us though, that they had tried a few different methods of recording. Ultimately though they couldn't go straight off the ROM because it would lose sync with the game over periods of time. Centaur is the table that gave him the most fits with this. For Firepower II he actually recorded every single sound variation for the bonus count and then assembled them, a painstaking process of over 400 variations.

A lot of the choices FarSight made with TPA came down to saving space. They wanted one master build of a table from which they could port it over to all the platforms they had to deliver to. Obviously mobile was where the compromises needed to be made most, but every platform took its hits. I believe PS4 users had and still do terrible sound issues that weren't there at the start but once introduced, never went away.

If you ever wonder just how different the audio is between TPA and Zen, load up Safe Cracker. It is such a noticeably dynamic difference between the two.

 

[meanpinball]

As far as centaur, wow, what an addicting and fun game!

However, it also featured the most ridiculously unrealistic physics of any TPA simulation I've played. The ball would drain, hit that bumper pin at the bottom and bounce right back up into play as if a magnet had lifted it!

Again, so much fun though. TPA still has a lot of fun, playable tables.

 

[shutyertrap]

As far as centaur, wow, what an addicting and fun game!

However, it also featured the most ridiculously unrealistic physics of any TPA simulation I've played. The ball would drain, hit that bumper pin at the bottom and bounce right back up into play as if a magnet had lifted it!

Again, so much fun though. TPA still has a lot of fun, playable tables.

Well part of that was the as mentioned railroads for balls. The same kind of thing can be noticed on Medieval Madness with the gate before the catapult. I suspect this bit of behavior is no coincidence with the scripting they were using for gates. Now I agree the physics were rather easy with Centaur, I did play a real machine that once I understood when to nudge, I could get the ball back onto the playfield repeatedly.

 

[wilbers]

I was trying to find the podcast we did with Norman Stepansky (TPA audio engineer) that addressed this, but it was prior to our YouTube days. He went into it with us though, that they had tried a few different methods of recording. Ultimately though they couldn't go straight off the ROM because it would lose sync with the game over periods of time. Centaur is the table that gave him the most fits with this. For Firepower II he actually recorded every single sound variation for the bonus count and then assembled them, a painstaking process of over 400 variations.

A lot of the choices FarSight made with TPA came down to saving space. They wanted one master build of a table from which they could port it over to all the platforms they had to deliver to. Obviously mobile was where the compromises needed to be made most, but every platform took its hits. I believe PS4 users had and still do terrible sound issues that weren't there at the start but once introduced, never went away.

If you ever wonder just how different the audio is between TPA and Zen, load up Safe Cracker. It is such a noticeably dynamic difference between the two.

Tried googling to see if I could find the right podcast. Found wrong one but was interesting to listen to.

https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodcast/saucy-sounds-from-stepansky-49608

With statement at about 11 minutes that the intention was to update code on newer Stern tables such as Ghostbusters - large code update for that last year, nowt in TPA (or SPA), did it ever get any code updates in TPA/SPA after its original release? Norman really, really liked pinball then (and saying "right" a lot), and mentioning season 8 was in the dark himself at that point of there not being a season 8.

Just started to listen to https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodcast/sounds-hard-39143 think this may be the right one about the sound recording.

 

[trash80]

Tried googling to see if I could find the right podcast. Found wrong one but was interesting to listen to.

https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodcast/saucy-sounds-from-stepansky-49608

With statement at about 11 minutes that the intention was to update code on newer Stern tables such as Ghostbusters - large code update for that last year, nowt in TPA (or SPA), did it ever get any code updates in TPA/SPA after its original release? Norman really, really liked pinball then (and saying "right" a lot), and mentioning season 8 was in the dark himself at that point of there not being a season 8.

Just started to listen to https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodcast/sounds-hard-39143 think this may be the right one about the sound recording.

No, they never did any code updates.

 

[shutyertrap]

I looked back, couldn’t find another Norman interview. I used to get phone calls from him and we’d talk shop, so I might have confused one of those conversations for an actual podcast.

It’s rather amusing though listening back to some of those podcasts with us being super optimistic after having visited the studio or seen the guys at a convention. The sad part is how much either never came to fruition or was not technically possible for FarSight but obviously is for Zen. If you dig way back, you’ll find our interview with Bobby Bob-omb, then community manager for Zen. Talk about a different time!

 

[meanpinball]

I've had a long standing bias against Zen because between '13 and '18, I'd only played their rather cartoonish looking sorcerer's lair and a bit with their Star Wars table which had the same outdated physics.

By those standards, TPA was several steps ahead. It seems that TPA was optimized more for the small screen phones of the time, such as the iPhone 5.

The resource gap between Zen and Farsight has to be huge. If so, why did their earlier efforts look so cartoonish? I suppose the competition from Farsight pushed them to actually utilize the resources they had on hand? If Farsight was manpower and resource challenged, then that only underscores what they were able to achieve in terms of both quality and quantity with TPA.

If anything, I should be holding a grudge against TPA for making such entertaining games I became thoroughly addicted!


Wow, the FX3 tables look absolutely stunning:

 

[Captain Caveman]

Farsight was doing pinball before Zen was even heard of.. PS2 days..

 

[shogun00]

I believe PS4 users had and still do terrible sound issues that weren't there at the start but once introduced, never went away.

They actually did fix this in late 2018.

If you ever wonder just how different the audio is between TPA and Zen, load up Safe Cracker. It is such a noticeably dynamic difference between the two.

Party Zone is a better example in my opinion.

 

[shutyertrap]

I've had a long standing bias against Zen because between '13 and '18, I'd only played their rather cartoonish looking sorcerer's lair and a bit with their Star Wars table which had the same outdated physics.

By those standards, TPA was several steps ahead. It seems that TPA was optimized more for the small screen phones of the time, such as the iPhone 5.

The resource gap between Zen and Farsight has to be huge. If so, why did their earlier efforts look so cartoonish? I suppose the competition from Farsight pushed them to actually utilize the resources they had on hand? If Farsight was manpower and resource challenged, then that only underscores what they were able to achieve in terms of both quality and quantity with TPA.

You might wanna watch our latest podcast...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h5IcPVsy5Dk

 

[Pete]

my broken down machine guess is Cactus Canyon, figure due to its expensive price tag and rarity they probably got a nice break on the cost. or maybe its heavy metal meltdown, the plastics on that one are allways cracked and broken.

 

[shutyertrap]

my broken down machine guess is Cactus Canyon, figure due to its expensive price tag and rarity they probably got a nice break on the cost. or maybe its heavy metal meltdown, the plastics on that one are allways cracked and broken.

Cactus Canyon would be my guess too. They are super rare in Europe and those that do have them, won't part ways with 'em. FarSight jumped at the opportunity to buy one when they did, and paid through the nose for it too. If I'm not mistaken, they picked it up for something like 13k, more expensive than even the Medieval Madness machine they had to buy for a second time.

 

[Gorgar]

They actually did fix this in late 2018.

Yes, but I’m doing so, they introduced an even worse sound bug where the music doesn’t loop. So, after music (or for instance the black hole “dundundundundun” sound) plays through, you play through silence.

 

[shogun00]

Yes, but [by] doing so, they introduced an even worse sound bug where the music doesn’t loop. So, after music (or for instance the black hole “dundundundundun” sound) plays through, you play through silence.

True, but it only affects the scripted tables. And the sound resets once you hit a switch.

Personally, I find it as an improvement for Goin' Nuts.

 

[meanpinball]

I've tried to be as generous as possible in my assessment but ultimately the compromised physics of TPA is probably a deal breaker for anyone comparing the two brands at this point. This doesn't mean FX3 is perfect--it certainly isn't. It does mean however, that TPA physics is an ongoing distraction with most of their tables.

Although they've done a good job of hiding it, the lack of variability and unpredictability in where shots go becomes impossible to ignore with extended gameplay.

The flat, 2D appearance of the tables themselves is also uninspiring.

I considered TPA to be a revelation when I first started with the app in 2013. FX3 is on another level, however.

The only important question now is: can FX3 advance even further in providing an even more realistic simulation or will another company come along which can top zen?

 

[shutyertrap]

Magic Pixel has done a nice job with their Zaccaria Pinball, making improvements along the way when you consider the initial release a few years back. Unfortunately they are hindered by being ridiculously small (4 employees) and in need of a surge of capitol so they could hire more and maybe grab the Gottlieb license. Zen also started off really small and kept reinvesting in itself. At or near launch of Xbox 360 and PS3, they pretty much had the market to themselves, especially by being download only. This put them in front of my face long before I knew a thing about FarSight's Gottlieb and Williams Hall of Fame discs. By the time TPA came out, Zen was already onto FX2 and Zen 2, pretty much on equal footing with FarSight other than it being real pinball vs fantasy.

FarSight pulled ahead with a more true to pinball feel simply by having rubber that made the ball bounce as opposed to the leaden feel of Zen. Turns out that was a choice by Zen designers, and Deep was the lone voice asking for a bouncier feel. By the end of FX2, tables were being designed with that feel in mind and many older tables got retuned to mimic this more in FX3.

Any new studio that would have a go has a lot of ground to cover just to even catch up with Zen. Pinball Wicked is the closest anyone has come to getting there, but they've yet to produce a second table and are still tweaking the first. To get the needed attention, someone would need to strike a deal with the likes of Jersey Jack, Spooky, or American Pinball, or be insanely good at original table design as well as having a fantastic pinball engine. I'd love for Zen to have some proper competition, but man that's a steep hill for any studio to try and climb now.