Live Catching - Is it possible?

[mmmagnetic]

On a sidenote, I´ve read that Whirlwind has a two-stage flipper, that can be lightly pressed to activate just the upper flipper, making multiball a lot easier I´d imagine. I assume that later Lawlor designs probably have similar buttons. I would love it that could be implemented somehow (which would obviously be easier on controllers than on touchscreen devices).

 

[Fungi]

On a sidenote, I´ve read that Whirlwind has a two-stage flipper, that can be lightly pressed to activate just the upper flipper, making multiball a lot easier I´d imagine. I assume that later Lawlor designs probably have similar buttons. I would love it that could be implemented somehow (which would obviously be easier on controllers than on touchscreen devices).

Yeah, they did implement this on the PS3. It didn't go over well. People immediately asked for a button to turn it off.

 

[brakel]

Not a bad idea. If the freresh rate (which is 60 times per second at max, opposed to the original hardware which is probably a lot higher, even on fliptronics tables) prevents proper "mini-flips", I'd say it's fair to have a special button for it. It might not be a perfect simulation of playing real pinball with the two classic flipper buttons, but at least it would allow the player to perform the same tricks!

The video refresh rate is 60 times per second but that doesn't have anything to do with the physics. The normal refresh rate of the physics in TPA is 120 times per second but can ramp up even higher when necessary like when the ball is moving quickly near the flippers. The physics refresh rate is already there. What TPA needs is a better set of physical properties of the flippers. Things like momentum, speed of the return of the flippers, flex of the flippers when hit by the ball, etc.

As I said a few posts above it is possible to get a true live catch in TPA. But it's too rare for it to be something you can actually try to do on purpose. But the things that are needed for a live catch are already there. They just need to be adjusted so that it is something you can purposefully perform rather than something that happens by accident.

 

[Sumez]

Yeah, i remember them saying that the physics refreshes more often when the ball if near the flippers, which is very smart. What about reading the input, though? It might be restricted by the hardware, driver, or platform in general.

 

[brakel]

Yeah, i remember them saying that the physics refreshes more often when the ball if near the flippers, which is very smart. What about reading the input, though? It might be restricted by the hardware, driver, or platform in general.

The DualShock3 for the PS3 doesn't communicate with the console by way of sending information at a set rate. It sends data in a stream. While the bandwidth of that stream could be equated to a refresh rate of some sort, they are not really analogus. However, the bandwidth of the stream is more than enough to keep up with any physics engine that the PS3 or PS4 can handle. Because all of the buttons on a DualShock3 are analog its already sending much more data than TPA even needs.

 

[Deltaechoe]

Live catches on the PC version seem to be possible as I've done them a few times already and drop stops are definitely possible now as I do it all the time. Your best bet right now though, is to get good at post trapping, which is what I normally do if I have a ball going way too fast.

 

[smbhax]

Those comments above about cradle separations struck me as curious; on the PS3 at least I can do cradle separations somewhat reliably, unlike drop catches and live catches.

 

[Exo]

A real cradle separation (where only the ball closest to the center jumps up) is something I have yet to see or do.
Do any of you guys have a video of those live catches happening? Would be interesting to see if they're not actually just hitting the post or if any nudging on impact was involved.

By the way do the devs of TPA actually read these forums or is there any other way to let them know about this?

 

[superballs]

A real cradle separation (where only the ball closest to the center jumps up) is something I have yet to see or do.
Do any of you guys have a video of those live catches happening? Would be interesting to see if they're not actually just hitting the post or if any nudging on impact was involved.

By the way do the devs of TPA actually read these forums or is there any other way to let them know about this?

Anyone who's name is highlighted blue and their title says "Farsight Employee" are Farsight employees.

They do participate in the forums, but tend to stick around the beta and bug threads.
When they can give info on a specific request they do though.

 

[Exo]

Ah I see. Well let's hope that they take note of this thread/issue then
Pinball just doesn't feel the same without those moves.

 

[brakel]

Ah I see. Well let's hope that they take note of this thread/issue then
Pinball just doesn't feel the same without those moves.

I think FarSight wants to continue to improve the physics. It's just a matter of time. Time is a premium at FarSight.

 

[Shaneus]

My theory (although I'm probably not alone in this) is that live catching is not just a momentum thing, but a spin thing as well. Obviously having more accurate forces etc. would help, but if the ball is spinning toward the pivot end of the flipper, then a live catch will still result in the ball rolling down, as would it potentially roll off if it had enough spin going toward the centre drain. A good live catch happens when you time the forces (obviously) and when the ball is spinning *just* enough toward the centre drain to prevent it from rolling down toward the lane guide, but not enough for it to roll up the flipper and into the drain itself.

It's funny, I never noticed something like spin until one day when I was playing Metallica and I saw a little bit of dirt or rubber or something on the ball, but even as the ball was rolling slowly it was still spinning quite quickly, enough to change it's direction when it hit a rubber surface. I notice it even more now on my own pin.

tl;dr: Spin plays a part in live catches too, which is another thing that TPA needs in terms of ball physics.

 

[Espy]

My theory (although I'm probably not alone in this) is that live catching is not just a momentum thing, but a spin thing as well. Obviously having more accurate forces etc. would help, but if the ball is spinning toward the pivot end of the flipper, then a live catch will still result in the ball rolling down, as would it potentially roll off if it had enough spin going toward the centre drain. A good live catch happens when you time the forces (obviously) and when the ball is spinning *just* enough toward the centre drain to prevent it from rolling down toward the lane guide, but not enough for it to roll up the flipper and into the drain itself.

It's funny, I never noticed something like spin until one day when I was playing Metallica and I saw a little bit of dirt or rubber or something on the ball, but even as the ball was rolling slowly it was still spinning quite quickly, enough to change it's direction when it hit a rubber surface. I notice it even more now on my own pin.

tl;dr: Spin plays a part in live catches too, which is another thing that TPA needs in terms of ball physics.

Yeah. I know that TPA physics are overall better than Zen's, but one thing they got right was ball spin. And you can tap flippers too. Just a shame that they've never thought to examine how a slingshot works, and don't seem to be aware of the post pass.

 

[Exo]

If they really don't have enough time for this I honestly wouldn't mind supporting them via another kickstarter so they can work on developing more realistic physics.
In my opinion if TPA gets all of the previously mentioned ball physics and moves working there is pretty much no competition left and we'd have the best pinball game ever made which seems like a worthy goal to donate towards

 

[Sumez]

I don't think more realistic physics is something you can just buy your way to.

Just a shame that they've never thought to examine how a slingshot works, and don't seem to be aware of the post pass.

There are a lot of real tables out there where post passes are impossible or at least pretty difficult/random.

 

[Espy]

I don't think more realistic physics is something you can just buy your way to.



There are a lot of real tables out there where post passes are impossible or at least pretty difficult/random.

I know that, of course! But with Zen it's generally pretty difficult to do. It varies per table. Could be deliberate, Zen like to shake things up.

 

[Exo]

I don't think more realistic physics is something you can just buy your way to.

I can fund more development time going towards it. That's a start

 

[brakel]

My theory (although I'm probably not alone in this) is that live catching is not just a momentum thing, but a spin thing as well. Obviously having more accurate forces etc. would help, but if the ball is spinning toward the pivot end of the flipper, then a live catch will still result in the ball rolling down, as would it potentially roll off if it had enough spin going toward the centre drain. A good live catch happens when you time the forces (obviously) and when the ball is spinning *just* enough toward the centre drain to prevent it from rolling down toward the lane guide, but not enough for it to roll up the flipper and into the drain itself.

It's funny, I never noticed something like spin until one day when I was playing Metallica and I saw a little bit of dirt or rubber or something on the ball, but even as the ball was rolling slowly it was still spinning quite quickly, enough to change it's direction when it hit a rubber surface. I notice it even more now on my own pin.

tl;dr: Spin plays a part in live catches too, which is another thing that TPA needs in terms of ball physics.

I think they shouldn't concentrate on live catching or any other advanced move but rather concentrate on improved physics. Once they get the physics right then things like live catching should fall into place.

 

[Shaneus]

I think they shouldn't concentrate on live catching or any other advanced move but rather concentrate on improved physics. Once they get the physics right then things like live catching should fall into place.

Yeah, pretty much. I know there could be a lot of work in implementing this sort of thing, but you'd have to think it could almost be done with simple mathematics. As in, ball starts with a spin value of 0. When ball hits this item on the playfield, it causes X amount of spin in Y direction, depending on angle (either + or -X, say, -50). Ball moves in whatever direction at -50 (say, for anti-clockwise) until it hits a post that applies +70 spin in the other direction because of it's angle and friction value. Ball is now rotating at +20 clockwise on it's next trajectory.

Thing is, for majority of tables spin wouldn't even need to be applied to the top third of the playfield because it wouldn't make a noticeable difference. Lower playfield with targets and further ball distances, sure. But other than that, it could be ignored (much like how other "physics" now are sampled a lot more frequently in the lower half of playfields).

There you go, FS. Job done

 

[debuggiest]

I can live catch and post pass in TPA, but cradle separation really hurts my multiballs. I need to be more comfortable with having more than 2 balls on the table at once.