Multiple FX Pinball announcements today, plus first looks!

[Scared Stiff]

You seem to be mad to and fighting with reality, or very susceptible to companies' marketing (I can easily blur an image to sell you the new one), so when FX reaches this level of REALISM below in details, visuals and lighting, then we can talk again

The only one who seems to be “mad” here is you. You have been absolutely hostile to both me and others in this thread, and even more hostile towards Zen themselves. It’s like you are on some sort of vendetta against the company.

Then you throw in even more negativity towards another game calling it “fartnight”, as well as multi platform gaming, so apparently you have lots of issues with lots of things.

Also, this was a discussion of the new Pinball FX to the previous one in terms of graphics improvement. Not a comparison to what random people are doing with VPX tables.

Not really sure what you expect Zen to do. Give up their business model to please you and drop support for everything but PC to compete with VPX? Abandon mobile gaming? What EXACTLY are you looking for Zen to do here? Let’s hear it.

 

[thefly0810]

"ZenStudios-Mel
10 hr. ago

First party rules still apply with purchases across different platforms. Nothing purchased on Xbox for example will unlock an item in PlayStation. Zen will not break that rule, so for now a subscription will be good for the platform it is purchased for."

I wonder if there's a workaround to this in the future. I know Fortnite Battle Passes are cross platform through your epic account. Minecraft purchases are cross platform through your Microsoft account. Maybe Zen could partner with Epic or Microsoft for cross platform pinball passes?

 

[pinballmonster]

The only one who seems to be “mad” here is you. You have been absolutely hostile to both me and others in this thread...

He's obviously an attention seeking troll. He can't get any positive attention IRL so, here he is.

 

[Scared Stiff]

He's obviously an attention seeking troll. He can't get any positive attention IRL so, here he is.

LOL. Perhaps. But I really am interested in what someone that criticizes Zen that much would have them do. However I suspect there won’t be an answer to the question.

 

[Cloda]

This is going to be YMMV (your milage may vary) situation.

I'm not going to bother comparing the two as they are. You're comparing an alpha build (PFX) to a more complete program (VPX), that's been out for a few years.

Clearly the video that Zen provided is using the casual physics and not the Willams physics. It also looks like Zen is using the default settings too. Even PFX3 had a gamma option that spices up the lighting. Who knows what other options Zen will provide in the final product. The VPX video on the other hand is at optimal settings. Can you guarantee that everyone will have the same experience as that VPX video? Doubt it! I have a decent laptop and I still have to adjust the settings to get a steady framerate. This usually makes the lighting effects look washed out for me

One issue I have with Visual Pinball in general is that there is no quality consistency. Some tables look amazing, while others look downright aweful. It really depends on the table author and how much effort they put into it. At least with Zen, Magic Pixel, and Farsight, I know that the quality of the tables will be on par with each other.

Zen's video clip in their latest The Pinball Show is Williams physics i.e. live catch and flipper movement. It looks like they still need to work on the physics a lot even to match what they already had in FX3 Williams Classic Arcade with e.g. Monster Bash.

The VPX is not at optimal settings ;-) . I have a 10 year old PC and I have to turn down a lot of visual settings including anti-aliasing, shadows and reflections. The lighting effects of the playfield are baked in, so I don't know what you are doing for it to look washed out? Maybe you are moving the day/night slider up too much?

Quality of VPX tables is linked to authors as you say. There has been a vast improvement in VPX quality over the last two years mostly because of a team of VPX veteran authors called the Visual Pinball Workshop (VPW) mod team that has set the standard. They have released 21 tables in two years that are all top-quality in terms of physics, lighting, sound etc. They also give input on many table author's work and help them to e.g. implement the latest physics that they have developed called nfozzy/rothbauer physics. They include table authors such as Skitso, Uncle Paulie, Flupper1, Bord, Daphishbowl, G5K and many others. There are also other great table authors outside of the VPW mod team and their collaborators including Goldchicco, JP Salas and Loserman57 which have all produced loads of high-quality tables. They play differently than the VPW mod tables, as they use different solutions for e.g. physics, but still look and play great. There are 100s of top-quality tables available and every couple of months they get updated (especially the VPW mod team tables) with e.g. refined physics, as they improve on it.

VPX (and soon VPE) will never be competition for Zen and Pinball FX as it is only PC based and purposefully designed so that you must be hands-on to get anywhere with it. It is though a better experience for those that are willing to work with it. I used to play only Pinball FX3 (mostly Williams), but since I got a PC about 8 months ago, I've only played VPX as the gameplay experience on the top tables are unmatched by Zen or anyone else. My favourite tables at this stage are mostly by VPW mod team and their collaborators and include Indiana Jones The Pinball Adventure, The Lord of the Rings Valinor Edition, Tales from the Crypt, Taxi, Whirlwind and Spider Man Vault Edition. There are so many great tables that I just haven't gotten to including Batman 66, Guardians of the Galaxy and Metallica.

 

[pinfan7]

He's obviously an attention seeking troll. He can't get any positive attention IRL so, here he is.

LOL. Perhaps.

Admin post: User was banned for posting this garbage.

 

[yespage]

VPX is superior and also a much larger investment time wise. Zen is click and play.

 

[Narc0lep5y]

The good news is, we can play both. VPX is a giant pain in the ^&% to set up and maintain, so it's not for everyone. I think it's well worth the effort, especially in a cabinet. But, if you build a cabinet you're already in for a huge learning curve, so this is just another part of it.

FWIW, I also think that Road Show and NGG are better in FX3 than currently available versions in VPX. FX3 tournaments have no comparison in VPX either. The Zen originals also aren't in VPX, so for those who feel strongly about them, that's more value.

Buying tables in FX supports the license and keeps pinball more mainstream and gets more players which is good for everyone. Playing in VPX means customizable cabinet options, customizable camera views, customizable physics, surround sound feedback, custom sounds, color dmd's, custom playfields, custom table mods, and more.
It also means all Zen has to do to create stellar cabinet support in Fx4 is just mirror what's already out there in VPX (and not tick off license holders), but they also had that option in FX3 and haven't done that yet so we'll wait and see what happens for 4.

Personally I'll buy FX3 Indy even though I'll have plenty of hours into the just-released VPinWorkshop Indy table before then, and will wait on FX4 until it's not exclusive on EGS.

Zen could also go all in on a bunch of flash but no substance features like this PinHall thing or something else at the expense of game play features and mess the whole thing up too.

 

[shogun00]

Zen's video clip in their latest The Pinball Show is Williams physics i.e. live catch and flipper movement. It looks like they still need to work on the physics a lot even to match what they already had in FX3 Williams Classic Arcade with e.g. Monster Bash.

That's interesting! I only watched a few seconds of the video. In that case, the physics on the elastics still need some work then. Especially, if they are using red rubbers.

Fun Fact: Did you know that the rubbers on pinball machines are color coded? The lighter the color, the more bouncier they are. White rubbers are the most bouncey, red is mid range, and black is the least bouncey.

The lighting effects of the playfield are baked in, so I don't know what you are doing for it to look washed out? Maybe you are moving the day/night slider up too much?

They aren't completely baked in. I change the intensity in the actual code script (when available), so I can keep most of the effects on. I'm amazed that the code for the lighting is still based on PacDude's lighting script code, that was originally made in VP8.

I occasionally use the day slider but not that much. I wonder if it's a setting on monitor that is causing the problem?

There has been a vast improvement in VPX quality over the last two years mostly because of a team of VPX veteran authors called the Visual Pinball Workshop (VPW) mod team that has set the standard. They have released 21 tables in two years that are all top-quality in terms of physics, lighting, sound etc.

That's good to hear. However, until they cover the tables that I usually play. I'm not going to notice much. Most of the tables I've played on VPX are tables I've played in real life. Most of them are in the niche category for what it's worth.

There are so many great tables that I just haven't gotten to including Batman 66, Guardians of the Galaxy and Metallica.

Have they finally started working on LCD tables? I'm surprised considering the ROM sizes (2.5GB average).

 

[Cloda]

Have they finally started working on LCD tables? I'm surprised considering the ROM sizes (2.5GB average).

Both the rules and video display etc. of Batman 66 and Guardians of the Galaxy was coded from scratch without using the ROM. It was a huge amount of work. That team is also working on a "new" table where they must do the same that they will hopefully release in the next few months. Someone is also working on Black Knight Swords of Rage and then you have tables that look like the real deal i.e. Godzilla, but without the rules and display. The ROM's for tables after around 2013 can't be emulated yet. The only exception I know about is Ghost Busters that Farsight ported and where the VPX use that "ROM".

 

[Pete]

the thing i really want to hear from zen right now, is that we are going to get all the williams tables in VR on oculus. Ive got a quest 2 and star wars is pretty cool on it... i didn't even like the star wars tables, and yet now i play them because i have the head set... and it is pretty cool in vr... however what i really want is Williams/Bally tables. the whole time playing it i'm like i wish these were good tables. they sold over 6 million of these head sets. the store is currently tiny with much less competition than consoles. they already have the groundwork figured out with star wars. they would be completely stupid to not release everything they can on it ASAP before it bloats with crap.

 

[shogun00]

Both the rules and video display etc. of Batman 66 and Guardians of the Galaxy was coded from scratch without using the ROM. It was a huge amount of work. That team is also working on a "new" table where they must do the same that they will hopefully release in the next few months. Someone is also working on Black Knight Swords of Rage and then you have tables that look like the real deal i.e. Godzilla, but without the rules and display. The ROM's for tables after around 2013 can't be emulated yet. The only exception I know about is Ghost Busters that Farsight ported and where the VPX use that "ROM".

I own BK:SoR (pro) and I can tell you first hand that the ROM file for that machine is 2.6GB uncompressed. Spike 1 games are emulatable, since the board only uses a standard graphics chip and low end CPU. Plus, the ROM file is no larger than 50MB. Spike 2 uses a GPU along with a high end CPU.

 

[shogun00]

the thing i really want to hear from zen right now, is that we are going to get all the williams tables in VR on oculus. Ive got a quest 2 and star wars is pretty cool on it... i didn't even like the star wars tables, and yet now i play them because i have the head set... and it is pretty cool in vr... however what i really want is Williams/Bally tables. the whole time playing it i'm like i wish these were good tables. they sold over 6 million of these head sets. the store is currently tiny with much less competition than consoles. they already have the groundwork figured out with star wars. they would be completely stupid to not release everything they can on it ASAP before it bloats with crap.

The problem is can they? It's not Zen that's the problem but Scientific Games. Either SG is asking way too much to add VR to the current WMS contract or they are against VR in general.

 

[wilbers]

How much do oculus do to curate their store? Are they actively keeping shovelware out of it and only allowing "proper" games/software to be listed in it?

 

[Narc0lep5y]

How much do oculus do to curate their store? Are they actively keeping shovelware out of it and only allowing "proper" games/software to be listed in it?

The Oculus store has user reviews and videos of just about every game. I dont know how much curation is really needed as VR takes enough effort to develop for and has a much smaller installed base as opposed to something like mobile with a huge user base where shovelware can really get out of control. As with all PC games, wait for sales as they happen frequently if in doubt of the quality of a title.

If using a quest 2 - you can use the headset as a stand alone device or as a PC headset (wired or wireless). If using Oculus as a PC headset you can also use Steam VR in addition to the oculus (Rift) store.

That's probably the most confusing thing about Quest 2. Making sure you know which version of the game you are buying. The Quest store is the store front for non PC versions, and the Rift/Oculus store has the Oculus PC store versions. and Steam often has those same games too, except the Oculus exclusives and you can only get the Steam exclusives via the Steam store. Star Wars Pinball VR is even more confusing. Star Wars Pinball VR has a steam VR version (PC) and a quest version (no PC needed). But it is NOT on the Rift store. And while it was on the quest store at one time searching for it doesnt bring anything up. I went to Zen's site and followed their link and it takes you to the Quest version page, but it doesnt allow purchasing, just allows wishlisting. Steam reviews are not kind. Maybe Oculus does curate games and they pushed out Star Wars Pinball VR as a result.

 

[Scared Stiff]

That's interesting! I only watched a few seconds of the video. In that case, the physics on the elastics still need some work then. Especially, if they are using red rubbers.

Fun Fact: Did you know that the rubbers on pinball machines are color coded? The lighter the color, the more bouncier they are. White rubbers are the most bouncey, red is mid range, and black is the least bouncey.

No! I did not know that! That explains why the tables with white ones drive me crazy with all that bouncing!

 

[shogun00]

No! I did not know that! That explains why the tables with white ones drive me crazy with all that bouncing!

I only learned about it a few years ago, when I bought my first machine.

 

[trash80]

If only I could pick stocks as well as I "predicted" what Zen was going to do with Pinball FX.

To those wondering about physics, the new stuff isn't exactly just a rebranded Williams Physics. All the physics have been ported directly from FX3 to UE, but the new "Pro Physics" are tweaked versions of the old Williams Physics so they work with the original table designs while providing continuity across all table types. Will you be happy with the new physics when compared to the old Williams Arcade physics? Who knows... but it is good to see more people enjoying VPX.

 

[TFHFony]

For me it too little, too late. ZEN really killed my love for digital pinball. I bought all available tables on the WiiU, and later again on the PS4 platform.
But with the long-standing bugs on some tables and the censorship on the consoles I recently decided to sell my PS4pro (which I actually only used for Pinball) and call it a day. Also looking at the new announcement, I don't see the the big advantage for the users of migrating to the new software plarform, except for ZEN being able to sell the same tables again.
It was fun for as long as it lasted. Farewell ZEN.

 

[Scared Stiff]

For me it too little, too late. ZEN really killed my love for digital pinball. I bought all available tables on the WiiU, and later again on the PS4 platform.
But with the long-standing bugs on some tables and the censorship on the consoles I recently decided to sell my PS4pro (which I actually only used for Pinball) and call it a day. Also looking at the new announcement, I don't see the the big advantage for the users of migrating to the new software plarform, except for ZEN being able to sell the same tables again.
It was fun for as long as it lasted. Farewell ZEN.

The big advantage is that not only will the graphics be better, but by not having to develop and maintain their own proprietary engine, they can devote time and resources to just the tables themselves which should help speed things up a little. There have been quite a few new tables released for Apple Arcade in a relatively brief amount of time, so I think it’s already helping. But time will tell on that.

As for censorship on consoles, well, use the PC version then. No need to abandon ship completely.