New Stern Pinball Arcade: AC/DC Kickstarter is FULLY FUNDED!!!

[Ben Logan]

Which platforms got Physics 3.0 on all tables? Steam only?

 

[Tann]

Which platforms got Physics 3.0 on all tables? Steam only?

EDIT: Nope. The very recent Wii U version has also Physics 3.0 on all tables (latest table released: Judge Dredd)

So far as I know, for Physics 3.0 on other devices than PC (and Wii U now):

PS4: starting from Xenon. Implemented also on Big Shot and The Party Zone.
PS3: starting from Cyclone. Not implemented on any older tables.
Mobile: starting from Xenon. Don't know for older tables.
Xbox One: don't know.
Xbox 360: don't know.

 

[Ben Logan]

Thanks for the info, Tann. I appreciate it.

 

[Tann]

Thanks for the info, Tann. I appreciate it.

Oops, I forgot the very recent Wii U version, that has Physics 3.0 on all tables (latest table released: Judge Dredd). Previous post edited.

 

[Crawley]

Seems so. Or at least, TPA new table releases will be more spaced. And given the fact that SPA will be a complete technical/graphics/physics overhaul, TPA will maybe look dated once SPA will be available. Not good, not good at all. Game over, man, GAME OVER.

I would imagine TPA releases would continue as normal. This is their bread and butter income. Stern App games likely will come less frequently so they wouldn't pin their entire income on that - it's just extra for them providing the tables sell well.

 

[steven120566]

EDIT: Nope. The very recent Wii U version has also Physics 3.0 on all tables (latest table released: Judge Dredd)

So far as I know, for Physics 3.0 on other devices than PC (and Wii U now):

PS4: starting from Xenon. Implemented also on Big Shot and The Party Zone.
PS3: starting from Cyclone. Not implemented on any older tables.
Mobile: starting from Xenon. Don't know for older tables.
Xbox One: don't know.
Xbox 360: don't know.

XBOX 360 does not have the new physics on any released tables thus far.

 

[Strikezilla01]

The description says that TSPA will launch with ACDC (pending Kickstarter), Star Trek, Starship Troopers, and Frankenstein. The $70 tier says that table pack 1 will consist of 4 tables: ACDC, Star Trek, Starship Troopers, and Ripley's (instead of Frankenstein). Which one is it?

Star Trek, Starship Troopers, Frankenstein, and Ripley's will be launch titles. Frankenstein will actually be a free table. Ripley's can be purchased individually or through the Table Pack One set. The Kickstarter text will be updated to clarify.

Let's just hope the Stern App doesn't mean the death for TPA.

It's not. We are still dedicated to Season 6.

 

[francis247uk]

Awesome news! Can't wait to see the new game in action

 

[Ben Logan]

Strikezilla -- thanks for the clarification regarding Ripley's / Frankenstein. That's super news. Good luck to you developers. Keep up the solid communication.

 

[vikingerik]

Balls are heavier and a lot less bouncy with Physics 3.0.

This isn't true. The same tables have exactly the same railroads before 3.0 as after. Things like Ripley's catching from the continent scoop eject, TZ shooting from a lock eject to ricochet off the upper-left flipper into the piano, STTNG where a rolling shot from the left popper never quite makes it into the lock, Flight 2000 the super-long railroad from the top eject off a dropped drop target and the center post into the right inlane. There was no change in any of this behavior. If anything had changed on weight or bounciness, these same railroads wouldn't work. But they still do.

The behavior does differ table to table. Early tables like CV feel floaty, later tables like Addams feel heavier. But those are parameters (slope, friction, gravity) specific to each table that were never changed after that table's release for 2.0 or 3.0 or anything else. CV never got any less floaty. The proof is that the railroad from the ringmaster eject still behaves identically (guaranteed catch on the right) before and after 3.0.

3.0 didn't do anything besides enable drop and live catches by way of some canned conditionals. People are good at fooling themselves into thinking the feel is different, but they're comparing new tables to old and not an old table to itself.

 

[vikingerik]

I'm hoping for a complete physics overhaul. I wish Farsight would reach out to Barnstorm games with an offer to license Pro Pinball's amazing physics. Or maybe consult with them for a fee.

Ideally you just want a physics model where everything is emergent behavior. Things like live catches just "happen", as a result of ball velocity and spin.

Definitely. Pro Pinball does it the right way, where everything is emergent. But I think Farsight doesn't really care. The simple easy railroad physics work fine for the vast majority of their players. Farsight doesn't have any reason to want to change that or invest any resources into it. Those of us that really care can go play VP or Timeshock instead.

 

[Ben Logan]

Great critique with some nice specific examples, Vikingerik. This is exactly the kind of predictability that should never exist in a game where "the ball is wild." For the amount of cash so many of us have invested in TPA over the years, I think it's reasonable to expect a genuine pinball simulation, rather than a mere video (railroad) game.

Shutyertrap indicated that Farsight has solicited physics consultation from the community before. I'd love it if they'd reach out to the VP afficiandos this time around with Physics 4.0

Think of how wonderful it would be to actually be able to use SPA and TPA to practice up for a real pinball tournament (beyond study of ruleset)!

 

[Tann]

There was no change in any of this behavior. If anything had changed on weight or bounciness, these same railroads wouldn't work. But they still do.

1st point:

When I meant "bounciness", I talk about the ball bouncing on a flipper, when you try to catch it.

With 3.0, the ball sticks more easily to the flipper rubber (which makes feel it heavier), with old physics, the ball itself bounces like a rubber ball. The poorly pre-programmed ball path has nothing to do with this (but sad to learn that 3.0 doesn't improve this, even a little... And now, I don't undertstand why FS stated they had to tweak each table physics one-by-one, if it doesn't even change some ball paths. B***S*** again).

But maybe I'm wrong, as you said, on PS3, I can just compare new tables with 3.0 and old tables with old physics. Once T2 will have 3.0 on PS3 (maybe never ^^), I will be able to compare, because T2 has currently the most "bouncing ball" on the flipper (and it's awful).

2nd point:

Some comparison:

- Addams Family PS3 - Old physics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ri8KD62C-8
- Addams Family PC - Physics 3.0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9COpCBQGqVM

It's obvious that the PS3 ball is more floaty.

On PC, the ball gains velocity when it drops down to the flippers from the top of the table. On PS3, it always have the same velocity, just depending on the initial power of the flipper shot.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

They did change some ball paths, which is table-by-table tweaking. The obvious one is, it's now possible to make the right ramp on AFM from a hold on the left flipper. It's still a very tight shot, but it's no longer impossible.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I think we all "hoped" Stern would pick up the costs, but knew that was not likely. This just confirms the depressing truth.

For those wondering what FarSight is getting out of this deal, it seems pretty clear to me. They get the unlocked version of the game code, which eliminates the need for emulation. This is the advantage Zen has with how efficiently their tables run. FarSight also does not have to worry about licensing costs for current release games as digital rights were added into the license Stern made. Without that, FarSight would have to kickstart every single modern Stern title, which wasn't going to happen. Lastly, FarSight gets the CAD files and image files directly from Stern for building the tables, rather than them having to get a physical machine, depopulate the play field, photograph and build all the objects digitally themselves. This should speed up the process, make it 100% accurate in looks (no T2 endoskeleton issues), and allow them to instead concentrate on the physics of how the ball moves.

Hopefully we as players can expect Stern to be sticklers for a polished finished product, as their name is in the title and reflects on them too. I also really hope FarSight will be able to update the table ROM as Stern comes out with patches.

So since the development costs are much lower, maybe they could use that extra money to, I dunno, cover the license costs themselves? Nah, they'll just do a kickstarter and then charge way more than usual for the table. Seems legit!

 

[starck]

Star Trek, Starship Troopers, Frankenstein, and Ripley's will be launch titles. Frankenstein will actually be a free table. Ripley's can be purchased individually or through the Table Pack One set. The Kickstarter text will be updated to clarify.



It's not. We are still dedicated to Season 6.

And what if we already own these tables on TPA?
Will we receive them for free? Will they now be ANOTHER new purchase? Will they be discounted? If so, how much?
I've already bought tables on PS3...then had to do the same, again on PS4 (which is plagued with issues and is not an upgrade). Now will I have to again re-buy these tables for SPA?

 

[Ben Logan]

They did change some ball paths, which is table-by-table tweaking. The obvious one is, it's now possible to make the right ramp on AFM from a hold on the left flipper. It's still a very tight shot, but it's no longer impossible.

I may be betraying my ignorance here, but the whole concept of preprogrammed "ball-paths" seems to be part of the problem. I don't know much about video game development, but I do know something about how rock and roll recording gear is emulated in digital form: In the higher end products, analog components that make up a whole piece of real gear (like a real life tube guitar amplifier) are modeled piece by piece. The power supply, the tubes, the speaker, etc., are all digitally modeled. What you end up with in the end is a piece of software that is capable of reproducing the "non-linearities," the pleasant surprises that take place with real world gear. In this way, things aren't predictable. You're often thrown for a loop. In digital modeled analog synths, oscillators often drift a bit out of tune like the real thing, eg.

I would think TPA would model ball physics, set up collidables like rubbers and bash toys, and ramps, and then "set the ball free" to roam wild in that environment. The idea of preset shot paths and railroad playfield returns to flippers is a little depressing.

Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

It's all to do with the engine having to run at 60 frames per second. How long does it take for a ball to roll down a flipper? Less than a second, for sure. For the sake of argument, say it takes 1/10 of a second for the ball to roll down a flipper when it's released from a trap (I've not timed it and it's likely very wrong). That's 6 frames. So there are really only 6 possible positions the ball can be in when you flip.

 

[Ben Logan]

Wow - that's a really insightful argument, Eldar. Thanks. I'd never thought about the problem in terms of framerate constraint. So, are you thinking that a higher framerate will open up possibilities for improved physics? Is higher framerate forthcoming in the new engine (based on what we know from the Kickstarter video)?

 

[Crawley]

So since the development costs are much lower, maybe they could use that extra money to, I dunno, cover the license costs themselves? Nah, they'll just do a kickstarter and then charge way more than usual for the table. Seems legit!

With the deal they've worked out what price should the tables be?