New UI Discussion

[brakel]

Most companies don't accept unsolicited ideas. Protects them from lawsuits down the road.

 

[shoelacious]

And actually, considerable thought has gone into this UI so that it can support both present and future features. Remember that this is just one screen of many that will be needed,

If it needs so many screens, that's hardly an argument that it was properly designed. On the contrary, it's poor design. We're going to end up playing the UI instead of pinball.

As for "features"... well, the new UI certainly highlights a lot of peripheral ones (random table, high scores, username, etc.) And yes, it does push IAP/DLC a lot more---I'm sure new users will just love that. And it promotes these "features" above the only feature most players care about---the source material. That's the big asset in TPA; and it's totally sidelined. They even need to duplicate the table names in text, having made the logos so illegibly minimal. Meanwhile, no playfields, no cabs, no backglass... no toys... nothing a player might remember from experience (like that lamp, or that marionette head, or that blue chest, or etc.). No, it's just a lot of balls.

and also that this UI needs to work on screen sizes ranging from tiny phones to big-screen TVs (and in both portrait and landscape orientations, too).

Websites have mobile versions nowadays. To insist on a single UI for such a diversity of platforms and devices is not exactly forward thinking... and to come up with that design concept, even accepting those constraints, is certainly a miss. The new UI looks complicated, airless, and dated. It interposes a barrier (or several?) between the user and the content. It looks like the weakest elements of the Zen UI plus the ugliest parts of Windows Media Player. The existing one is no home run either; but by comparison, it has fewer flaws, it shows off the primary content, and it feels a lot more vital.

(re: "I'm willing to send FS a treatment") That would be up to FarSight to decide, not us. The intellectual property situation would be unclear at that point.

Hey, one of you asked; I answered.

 

[shutyertrap]

Hey, one of you asked; I answered.

I asked.

It is a lot easier to say "this sucks" than it is to offer up actual solutions. FarSight has a finite amount of space to devote to the UI. They can either waste that space on 3D models of cabinets, or they can maximize what a user can do within the UI. I'm generalizing, but you get the picture. Things people have been clamoring for...

1. Quick access to play
2. Ease of finding which table to play
3. The ability to customize what tables are shown in what order
4. New game play elements such as online, challenges, and tournaments
5. A better 'store' to deal with
6. Improved customizable leaderboards
7. Quicker views of goals to accomplish

The very first screen addresses #1, in that you can immediately play with the push of one button. Not having to scroll through a wheel of tables but instead seeing as many tables as possible at once addresses #2. #3 is handled by allowing you to set how you would like your tables displayed, be it by manufacturer, year, and other things that you have not seen the screen for. #s 4 and 7 are taken care of by showing much more info about what your scores and friends scores are without even having to enter the table's main launch page. Tournaments and other info will be displayed in an active text box on the main page, keeping players informed so that they don't have to rely on Facebook or sites like this to be in the know. We've been helping on #5 so that there is a fair balance between having DLC pushed while making it easy to know what is available. For #6, it's the ability to filter what you see, how you wanna see it. Want to see EVERYONE'S scores with no regard to platform? Done. Wish to see platform specific? Done. Only view your friends? Okay. Care to see your place but also the top scores so that you don't have to scroll through the 1000 places between? You can do that too.

As I pointed out, you have not seen everything that is being planned. There are screens that we've yet to be shown too. You have essentially seen 2 screens, the 3rd being a variation option of the 2nd. You are arguing from a very shaky platform. However, if you think you could articulate a solution to the above 7 conditions, then please do. Let's hear your ideas. Give solid, practical solutions that coincide with what the community has been requesting for the past year +, and I'll post them to the proper person.

But again, not everything will work even if it is a good idea, simply because the space within the game FS is trying to shoehorn this in to. As it was explained to me, Sony (for example) has TPA as a disc being 100 parts big. If the old UI took 5 parts, the new UI cannot take up 7. The disc is fixed in size, not flexible for going larger. Want a larger UI? Then those 2 parts needed have to come out of some other portion of the game. Savvy?

 

[Daniel Osborne]

SyT, a truly excellent post sir

 

[Daniel Osborne]

I like the new GUI, just remember that you'll never please everyone. It's similar to what Zen use yes, well, that's probably because what they've done works, looks good and is easy to navigate. It's a GUI, all the other bits people are worried about not seeing could be on the table loading screen or table intro screen once it's loaded.
It's a huge improvement imo.

 

[Sean]

I'd have to use it before I could complain about it myself. I can't say I find the new UI too problematic. My only persistent complaint (if I could be bothered to articulate it, but frankly it's not important enough even for internet *****ing) would be about the slowness of accessing and browsing leaderboards and having multiple option menus when one would suffice (preferably without scrolling) - especially seeing as the only per-table option is the ball art.

Sounds like the new UI will be head-and-shoulders above the current one - yahoo!

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

If it needs so many screens, that's hardly an argument that it was properly designed. On the contrary, it's poor design. We're going to end up playing the UI instead of pinball.

As for "features"... well, the new UI certainly highlights a lot of peripheral ones (random table, high scores, username, etc.) And yes, it does push IAP/DLC a lot more---I'm sure new users will just love that. And it promotes these "features" above the only feature most players care about---the source material. That's the big asset in TPA; and it's totally sidelined. They even need to duplicate the table names in text, having made the logos so illegibly minimal. Meanwhile, no playfields, no cabs, no backglass... no toys... nothing a player might remember from experience (like that lamp, or that marionette head, or that blue chest, or etc.). No, it's just a lot of balls.

Speak sense. No one is going to be "playing the UI". If anything, they'll be getting to the pinball faster, as they won't have to spin the Price is Right wheel to select a table. At least on iPad, it takes 6 or 7 swipes to get fully around the wheel, and it's getting worse with every table added.

Many players aren't pinball fiends and aren't going to be able recognize iconic elements from the tables on sight, so they have to include the table names in text.

Websites have mobile versions nowadays. To insist on a single UI for such a diversity of platforms and devices is not exactly forward thinking... and to come up with that design concept, even accepting those constraints, is certainly a miss. The new UI looks complicated, airless, and dated. It interposes a barrier (or several?) between the user and the content. It looks like the weakest elements of the Zen UI plus the ugliest parts of Windows Media Player. The existing one is no home run either; but by comparison, it has fewer flaws, it shows off the primary content, and it feels a lot more vital.

At the risk of insulting the membership, TPA is not a website. And, I must add, I find most "mobile-optimized" websites highly annoying - the first thing I'm looking for is usually the "Full Site" link.

Shutyertrap has already addressed the rest of this section, so I won't reiterate.

Hey, one of you asked; I answered.

Shutyertrap is not a moderator. He is one of our most senior and well-respected members, though.

 

[Kratos3]

It's going to be way better than the current UI. What's the issue?

 

[brakel]

I asked.

It is a lot easier to say "this sucks" than it is to offer up actual solutions. FarSight has a finite amount of space to devote to the UI. They can either waste that space on 3D models of cabinets, or they can maximize what a user can do within the UI. I'm generalizing, but you get the picture. Things people have been clamoring for...

1. Quick access to play
2. Ease of finding which table to play
3. The ability to customize what tables are shown in what order
4. New game play elements such as online, challenges, and tournaments
5. A better 'store' to deal with
6. Improved customizable leaderboards
7. Quicker views of goals to accomplish

The very first screen addresses #1, in that you can immediately play with the push of one button. Not having to scroll through a wheel of tables but instead seeing as many tables as possible at once addresses #2. #3 is handled by allowing you to set how you would like your tables displayed, be it by manufacturer, year, and other things that you have not seen the screen for. #s 4 and 7 are taken care of by showing much more info about what your scores and friends scores are without even having to enter the table's main launch page. Tournaments and other info will be displayed in an active text box on the main page, keeping players informed so that they don't have to rely on Facebook or sites like this to be in the know. We've been helping on #5 so that there is a fair balance between having DLC pushed while making it easy to know what is available. For #6, it's the ability to filter what you see, how you wanna see it. Want to see EVERYONE'S scores with no regard to platform? Done. Wish to see platform specific? Done. Only view your friends? Okay. Care to see your place but also the top scores so that you don't have to scroll through the 1000 places between? You can do that too.

As I pointed out, you have not seen everything that is being planned. There are screens that we've yet to be shown too. You have essentially seen 2 screens, the 3rd being a variation option of the 2nd. You are arguing from a very shaky platform. However, if you think you could articulate a solution to the above 7 conditions, then please do. Let's hear your ideas. Give solid, practical solutions that coincide with what the community has been requesting for the past year +, and I'll post them to the proper person.

But again, not everything will work even if it is a good idea, simply because the space within the game FS is trying to shoehorn this in to. As it was explained to me, Sony (for example) has TPA as a disc being 100 parts big. If the old UI took 5 parts, the new UI cannot take up 7. The disc is fixed in size, not flexible for going larger. Want a larger UI? Then those 2 parts needed have to come out of some other portion of the game. Savvy?

Thanks for trying to make sense of the UI project to those of us who have not seen the final product. I have, on other issues, spoken out in support of speculation about things that we don't know 100% about, but I don't like that people are verbally crucifying the UI without seeing it and using it. Really you have to use a UI before you can really intelligently critique the UI.

The part about what shutyertrap says that really speaks to me though is that I don't want FarSight to be spending too many resources on the UI. They could optimize the UI for every platform. They could have options for building your own walk through arcade as part of the UI. The bottom line is that for every man hour that they spend working on the UI that's one man hour that is reduced from working on the pinball tables.

So, yes I want a new UI that I can navigate the many tables available but let's leave it at that and let them get back to bringing us great virtual pinball!

 

[Crawley]

It's going to be way better than the current UI. What's the issue?

The problem is it doesn't automatically show and launch the table I'm thinking about playing when I go in to Pinball Arcade.

But that's so minor right now. They have yet to fix the larger basic UI issue that's been in Pinball Arcade since day one. I still have to go over and physically turn on my device and then select Pinball Arcade to launch it. C'mon! That's way too much work! How could they even think of releasing this thing in such a shoddy state. And yet while this continues to remain unfixed, despite my endless complaints, they release new tables each month. It's inconceivable!

 

[superballs]

I wish I could spill about the tokens, but their use still isn't finalized. I will say it's not going to affect how you currently play TPA.

I wish you could spill about the tokens too.

The problem is it doesn't automatically show and launch the table I'm thinking about playing when I go in to Pinball Arcade.

But that's so minor right now. They have yet to fix the larger basic UI issue that's been in Pinball Arcade since day one. I still have to go over and physically turn on my device and then select Pinball Arcade to launch it. C'mon! That's way too much work! How could they even think of releasing this thing in such a shoddy state. And yet while this continues to remain unfixed, despite my endless complaints, they release new tables each month. It's inconceivable!

Yeah, i hate that, when will they ever get it right.

Pshhh,

 

[shoelacious]

Speak sense. No one is going to be "playing the UI". If anything, they'll be getting to the pinball faster, as they won't have to spin the Price is Right wheel to select a table. At least on iPad, it takes 6 or 7 swipes to get fully around the wheel, and it's getting worse with every table added.

Spinning "The Price Is Right" wheel is easy and focused. Navigating "Hollywood Squares" is easy too, but it's spread out and illegible. There's no point-of-focus in the new UI, so you have to look all over the place. We've got scrolling; we'll get squinting. (And they'll probably need a colorblind option.)

Many players aren't pinball fiends and aren't going to be able recognize iconic elements from the tables on sight, so they have to include the table names in text.

I'm not a pinball fiend. I recognize tables by the playfield, which is what I experience when I play. TPA got my cash when I saw the Golden Lamp and the Magic Drunk. The names, in plain text, are just about the least relevant identifier these tables have, unless you already know them by name. They're only required now because FS isn't using the logos to advantage.

The table logos are text---beautifully done, iconic, vintage, legible (when handled properly)---and they're an existing design asset. They've got the look of the tables. They're worth gold; they're already done. They deserve to be showcased. They're functional, and beautiful, and eliminate waste.

Instead they're opting for... the iOS app icons... ?

The decrease in legibility undermines their other design choices. Their icons are text that require more text. What design principle is that based on?

At the risk of insulting the membership, TPA is not a website. And, I must add, I find most "mobile-optimized" websites highly annoying - the first thing I'm looking for is usually the "Full Site" link.

I'm sure "the membership" can handle an argument by analogy. I'm pointing out that a difficult parameter does not justify or even require a bad design.

Shutyertrap has already addressed the rest of this section, so I won't reiterate.

If he addressed my points, I missed it. He offered other points, sure; I'm editing down my reply to them now. And I apologize in advance, because it's bound to be a sizable post.

 

[ER777]

The names, in plain text, are just about the least relevant identifier these tables have, unless you already know them by name.

This is my favorite part from all of your posts.

 

[Warped Trekker]

They should make the main menu, a 3D menu. Have all the arcade cabinets rendered in 3D, and set up in a 3D pinball arcade room. Then you "walk" through the isles to select your machine and start playing.

Example here at Pinballz Arcade in Austin

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

They should make the main menu, a 3D menu. Have all the arcade cabinets rendered in 3D, and set up in a 3D pinball arcade room. Then you "walk" through the isles to select your machine and start playing.

Please explain how such a menu would work on an iPhone.

 

[Tabe]

They should make the main menu, a 3D menu. Have all the arcade cabinets rendered in 3D, and set up in a 3D pinball arcade room. Then you "walk" through the isles to select your machine and start playing.

Example here at Pinballz Arcade in Austin

Besides being painful on a mobile device, the problem with the 3D arcade is that it would be painfully slow to navigate for people with the full set of tables installed. Imagine "wandering the aisles" for table #37 in a group of 42 or something. Every. Single. Time.

Not fun.

Not to mention that such a menu is a waste of development resources, having to create and model the 3D graphics every time.

 

[Warped Trekker]

Please explain how such a menu would work on an iPhone.

And that's the problem with Farsight's thought process. Making an all-in-one main menu for all devices. You don't do that. You make seperate main menus for each platform, depending on resolution and aspect ratio. They are trying to pull a Windows 8 GUI all-in-one thing here. It doesn't work nor does it look nice for all platforms. Mobile games should have different GUI's then consoles/pc.

 

[grashopper]

I do hope it's a slight bit different in the end. Hopefully a bit closer to zen...but I like it overall.
I'm amazed people can complain about a UI this much. Looks like it will function far better.
That's like complaining about a restaurant because you don't like what color they painted the building. The food is what matters...the UI is only there to get you to the fun parts as quickly and easily as possible.

 

[superballs]

And that's the problem with Farsight's thought process. Making an all-in-one main menu for all devices. You don't do that. You make seperate main menus for each platform, depending on resolution and aspect ratio. They are trying to pull a Windows 8 GUI all-in-one thing here. It doesn't work nor does it look nice for all platforms. Mobile games should have different GUI's then consoles/pc.

I'd prefer they use their resources to concentrate on pinball tables.

Seriously, speculation is cool but until it's released how can anyone tell whether it will be good or bad.

This is why devs shouldn't listen to people online. If they did they would create the homer car

 

[Kolchak357]

Hope it hits in the next update. Tough to speculate on something like this without seeing and trying it out.