Request No more Gottlieb tables

[Kolchak357]

Just checked, and there have been over 7 EM and early SS requests just in the last week...

But yeah, obviously not as many as DMDs and money talks.

There are also people like me who stopped requesting EMs. I've requested a few several times on FB. But the response from FS was so cold that I've given up.

 

[soundwave106]

The EMs are the ones with the iconic sounds and playfield designs, but NOBODY seems able to recall any in particular if they're not a pinball fan.

I'm Generation X and this is true of my era.

However, I bet that is absolutely untrue The Boomer era -- especially if we are talking about late EM to early solid state era (eg the 1970s right up to the video arcade boom). Basically post-Tommy, which is probably the watershed moment of "pinball" in the general culture. (In fact, some of the more "iconic" EMs IMHO are kinda "inspired by Tommy", such as Captain Fantastic and Wizard).

I'd actually argue that pinball was a bigger deal to that era compared to the revival years. The biggest issue is that they really are two different audiences and many from one era don't like the machines from the other era that much (and vice versa). I've often wondered if there was a way to separately market between the two... perhaps not, but pinball machines sold a *lot* more overall in the late 1970s.

Regardless, it is true that the vast majority of the requests are for DMD pins or System 11.

Also true is that this 1970s era really includes a lot of early SS, not just EM. In fact, the top sellers of this era were SS. So yes we do have more than just one pin from this era in Pinball Arcade. Under this expanded definition, this would include Gorgar, Black Knight, Flight 2000, Centaur, and Firepower. And I'll be honest, from what I see on the Facebook requests, the "better" targets to aim for are the late 1970s to early 1980s SS (eg stuff like Eight Ball Deluxe and Xenon). Especially since Centaur is emulated as well from what I remember, which means Ballys from that era don't have to be scripted.

The pre-1970s EMs do get kind of screwed. This is where there probably not a whole lot of interest at all, especially on the ones with "weird" features like Central Park.

Something like Wizard would be a more interesting thought experiment since the "Tommy"ish connection might draw in more casual players. It amazes me how despite everyone saying "EMs don't sell well" and so many people thinking EMs suck, so many people seem to love playing Big Shot.

 

[karl]

You said EM tables, not a combo of both.

Now, if you strictly look at SS tables, than yes, there's requests for those on a daily basis, including from myself.

Well, a couple of posts before this post, you yourself talked about ems like Kiss and Playboy. Both of them are SS games, and this shows how easy it is getting late em's and early ss games mixed up.

I do not think that most of those requesting older games think only of em machines.(even though em is the term most often used) Most of us are talking about classic machines we find fun from ca 1974 - 1981. I feel there is a distinct difference from ca 1982 when pinball changed and less money got invested in making good machines from 82-84. from 1974 - 1981 all the big companies sold a ton of pinball machines and the market was booming(like you said, Soundwave106) ergo a lot of quality games that a lot of us who never even played them back in the days is still hunting for or want to play today. A nice Eight ball de luxe might go for 3000$ + and Fathom even more than that. A great looking Centaur went for ca 5000$ in the us some time ago (and Fathom is even more sought after)

All of that value stuff is maybe not relevant to TPA. (and especially those who never play real pinball machines) I am just trying to say that all that interest in those games can't all be from nostalgic reasons only. 8 ball deluxe will of course not sell as much as most of the newer dmd tables but i believe there is still a big market for them and I'll bet the good ones will sell more than premier tables

 

[Kolchak357]

To me the best of late EM/early SS are pins like.

72 - Fireball
74 - Big Brave
75 - Atlantis, Abra Ca Dabra, Wizard!, Triple Strike, Fast Draw, Spirit of 76, Hokus Pokus
76 - Surf Champ, Buccaneer, Royal Flush, Capt Fantastic, Evel Knievel
77 - Centigrade 37, Mata Hari, Strikes and Spares
78 - Playboy, Joker Poker

 

[Rudy hates me]

I do believe FS will eventually release 8BD, maybe to test the water for releasing a classic table on it's own. If there's a backlash and sales are poor, especially for the most requested classic, then that will be that. If there's only money to be made from more popular modern tables, well, lets just point out the obvious and say less tables to choose from = less TPA seasons to come.

 

[DokkenRokken]

i think big shot is one of the best machines ever made. almost every time i shoot that ball i have almost zero clue where it will end up at. its pure frantic fun for me. em's are about survival, and if that's not fun for you, well... well i dunno what is fun for you.

I have to say, "Big Shot" is one of my favorite EM tables. I actually think its the best pool themed table as well.

Well, a couple of posts before this post, you yourself talked about ems like Kiss and Playboy. Both of them are SS games, and this shows how easy it is getting late em's and early ss games mixed up.

I do not think that most of those requesting older games think only of em machines.(even though em is the term most often used) Most of us are talking about classic machines we find fun from ca 1974 - 1981. I feel there is a distinct difference from ca 1982 when pinball changed and less money got invested in making good machines from 82-84. from 1974 - 1981 all the big companies sold a ton of pinball machines and the market was booming(like you said, Soundwave106) ergo a lot of quality games that a lot of us who never even played them back in the days is still hunting for or want to play today. A nice Eight ball de luxe might go for 3000$ + and Fathom even more than that. A great looking Centaur went for ca 5000$ in the us some time ago (and Fathom is even more sought after)

All of that value stuff is maybe not relevant to TPA. (and especially those who never play real pinball machines) I am just trying to say that all that interest in those games can't all be from nostalgic reasons only. 8 ball deluxe will of course not sell as much as most of the newer dmd tables but i believe there is still a big market for them and I'll bet the good ones will sell more than premier tables

I stand corrected. I guess it is pretty easy to mix em up. lol

Like I said, I'd be more than fine with 1 EM a season. As for SS, I put in requests for SS tables all the time.

I do believe FS will eventually release 8BD, maybe to test the water for releasing a classic table on it's own. If there's a backlash and sales are poor, especially for the most requested classic, then that will be that. If there's only money to be made from more popular modern tables, well, lets just point out the obvious and say less tables to choose from = less TPA seasons to come.

I think the last time someone asked about EBD, the answer they got was "Not at the moment. We already have enough pool themed tables".

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

The thing is that Eight Ball Deluxe seems to be pushed to the wayside for personal reasons, meaning it's really unlikely you'll ever see it, and if it gets released, it'll only be released grudgingly.

i think big shot is one of the best machines ever made. almost every time i shoot that ball i have almost zero clue where it will end up at. its pure frantic fun for me. em's are about survival, and if that's not fun for you, well... well i dunno what is fun for you.

Reaching objectives. While I personally don't find it much fun, there is a lot of appeal in I Wanna Be the Guy, to use an example, in trying to reach the end. You have infinite lives, so survival is pretty much guaranteed.

I'd actually argue that pinball was a bigger deal to that era compared to the revival years. The biggest issue is that they really are two different audiences and many from one era don't like the machines from the other era that much (and vice versa). I've often wondered if there was a way to separately market between the two... perhaps not, but pinball machines sold a *lot* more overall in the late 1970s.

This is precisely the issue here. These are two different audiences, and from the perspective of Farsight as a business, it'd be better for it to choose the larger one, assuming there is nothing that both audiences will go for (and it looks like there isn't). The older folks who want to play EMs are not as large of an audience as the ones who want to play later machines and thus don't bring in as much money.

Any time you see a company neglecting an audience, this is usually because the company does not expect that audience to be large enough or willing to pay enough to turn a profit. And appealing to fans alone is business suicide if you're not something on the scale of Star Wars, as can be seen with the $80+ million loss DreamWorks posted for Rise of the Guardians despite it being very popular on the Internet.

 

[soundwave106]

Personally, I expect if Eight Ball Deluxe is released, it will be towards the end when the "low hanging fruit" remaining in the System 11 and DMDs are exhausted.

This is precisely the issue here. These are two different audiences, and from the perspective of Farsight as a business, it'd be better for it to choose the larger one, assuming there is nothing that both audiences will go for (and it looks like there isn't). The older folks who want to play EMs are not as large of an audience as the ones who want to play later machines and thus don't bring in as much money.

Sure.

But I guess one issue I see here is that a helluv a lot of the iconic non-licensed DMDs and even System 11 pins have been done already. There's some left of course (I expect all three of the System 11s in the poll to eventually be released for instance) and I think we could make it through Season 3 and maybe at least some of Season 4 without some of these older pins. After that, I honestly scratch my head what a Season 5 looks like without any older pins. At least, a Season 5 that doesn't include some sort of blah modern entries.

I see three paths going forward. One is that a few good EM or early SS machines will make it. (In the recent Facebook post announcing Diner, believe it or not, from my count, a huge portion of the requests *that had no obvious licensing issues* came from the late 1970s - early 1980s.)

The second is that Farsight actually does some license work for the minor licenses (pins like Road Show, Monopoly, Roller Coaster Typhoon, etc.) and maybe aligns with the new pinball companies. If they do that, and get a few kicks in for *really* in demand licenses (eg TAF, Indy), there's enough to flush out a couple of seasons without dipping into "old pin" territory. (We all know that Road Show or other low-license Williams/Bally would outsell anything old. I'm not as certain about the Sterns without a real attractive theme, to be honest.).

The third is that Farsight starts releasing some honestly mediocre or poor Sys 11 / DMDs. Meh to that. I play Big Shot and Centaur far more than Dr. Dude and Harley Davidson.

In other words, barring some unexpected license heft, the seasons aren't going to look as attractive unless they start throwing a few bones to the older crowd.

 

[Jeff Strong]

There are two crowds, but there are also a lot of people who like both. You don't have to be "old" to like older pins. I'm barely 30 and I love 'em. My favorite pins are older than me, yet I enjoy the "newer" stuff too (T2 was my go to pin as a kid).

But I know most people like the extra bells and whistles that DMDs offer, so I can't fault Farsight for their selections. However, I do miss the 2 packs though, which were often a mix of old and new. I thought it was a great balance.

 

[DokkenRokken]

But I know most people like the extra bells and whistles that DMDs offer, so I can't fault Farsight for their selections. However, I do miss the 2 packs though, which were often a mix of old and new. I thought it was a great balance.

Agreed. I think everyone misses that. It was nice and usually pleased everyone.

As far as table types go, in all honesty, it's about what the table has to offer me. There are many DMD tables that I don't like. I actually enjoy the little things on the tables more than the video stuff. (The Skull ball capture in "Elvira and The Party Monsters", the whole re-creating the bride in "Bride of Pin*Bot", etc etc) I usually find my fascination and interest on overload when I play SS/S11 tables from the late 80's, early 90's.

I never got into Pinball for the high scores or rule sets, but the fascination of what was on the table.


I will say this though, my interest in "Skylab" after seeing it here has gone through the roof. It really looks like a fun table.