Not Zen at all

[PaulJansen]

It is no popular statement I’m introducing here. It is sur ton to dislike Pinball Arcade and to worship the Williams tables from Zen. Everywhere I read the same Zen fan statements: tables are beautiful done, physics are jawdropping and man, what are the TPA tables crude when compared. I wonder why! Really, I don’t like Zen at all and to make a statement: with Zen making Williams tables I am not happy at all! Here are some reasons:

1. Casual playing and enjoying on phones and tablets are ruined. Seriously the worst app ever made is the Williams app from Zen. It is unplayable and they killed all the fun! All the tables are ruined by this terrible freemium model and If you buy a package of tables the are crippled because you have to reach a certain level to play. How to reach the level is by shoot around on given tables. All fun is gone.

2. On my Mac I can’t use a controller. Is is not supported.

3. On my iPad en iPhone I can’t play with controller. It is not supported.

4. Om my Mac I can’t choose all keys for control. There are only by Zen selected keys available.

5. Tables are not genuine. Voices and artwork are censored

6. Where are the tables? Come on, since September 2018 they only launced 18 tables!!!

Ok, the apps look much better than TPA! That's a pro. But I wish the rights would be back to TPA. Current situation is not zen at all!

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Credit where it's due, Pinball Arcade and the Pinball Hall of Fame series by Farsight got me into pinball, and I'm pretty sure that's similar for many of us here. Even though Zen has the license now, doesn't mean TPA was ever bad -- their product just aged.

1. It could be better than what it is now. I'm not sure if they have a new system implemented to unlock tables easier, but for new players to the Williams mobile app, it'd be nice to select a group of a couple of tables to choose from to unlock, then go from there. Yes, it's a grind. I didn't purchase anything with money on that app.

2, 3, and 4, I can't argue with those statements because I own no Apple products.

5. Big disagree. Mobile and PC are uncensored, consoles and the rest of the platforms remain.

6. I know, I hate waiting too. You have to realize, though, that this is a marathon, not a sprint to release as many tables as possible within X amount of time. I'm willing to bet that it'll be worth the wait in the end.

I'm not big on mobile games either, which is why FX3 on Steam is my preferred choice.

 

[shutyertrap]

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, and that is exactly what this forum is for. Good or bad, so long as the opinions made are done so with respect, discussions can be had. So, let me discuss by addressing your points...

1. You dislike freemium, I get it. I personally dislike it when you play apps of this nature that hit a pay wall you simply cannot avoid. Zen's Williams app is not this however. It is more than possible to get every single table released, for free, so long as you are willing to dedicate time and effort to it. You clearly wish this to just be a pay for content app, and the payment system that is in place here is not cost effective nor easy to use. Completely valid feeling. Where I disagree with you though is that the app is unplayable (I play it almost daily) and that is no fun. I have found this sort of grinding for rewards to actually be the key factor in my daily play, as opposed to once I've collected everything I tend to stop playing completely as I use my phone for mobile app style games, and the PC for hardcore sessions. And again, grinding may not be for you, but once you have reached 2 stars, the tables can be played in normal 3 ball fashion.

2. Have you tried contacting customer support about controller support? Tried using a 3rd party app? I mean, part of me asks why you are doing any gaming at all on a Mac, but that's just me! I personally use a PS4 controller on my PC, and when I play TPA I have to use a 3rd party app to make it work, same with FX2.

3. Same situation, I don't know about controller support at all with phones or tablets. I thought iOS was supposed to be introducing support for PS4 controllers, but I don't know if that has happened yet.

4. Again, contact Zen customer support and see if there is a work around.

5. Not true. Only the consoles have censored art, mobile and PC allow you to select the uncensored version. As for voicework, care to give an example of where it's different? And it's not like FarSight didn't do some art tinkering in TPA, as that term came to be known as 'Festering' after what they had to do to Addams Family in order to release it. Further examples are what they did to No Fear, where art, DMD, and voice work were changed, and World Cup Soccer becoming World Champion Soccer with a completely new color scheme, major art alterations, and DMD changes. The reality is, if you want these tables in the digital realm, you are going to have to deal with certain allowances being made.

6. If you've paid any attention to Zen over the years, you'd realize 18 tables in that time period is really good for them. FarSight initially released 22 in their first year, but by year 3 were down to 10 a year. Emotions are making you see things in a certain light, but the facts are a bit different when you look not short term, but long. Oh, and Zen plans of having more tables come May or June.

7. The Zen app not only looks better than TPA, it plays better and sounds better. It's a bummer that the game is not playing nice with your Apple products. It plays amazing on my iPhone 7 plus, but then I am not trying to use my hands and I treat the game itself as nearly every other mobile app I have on my phone. You say it's the worst app ever, but I can give you a list of about 10 other pinball apps alone that will make you change your tune. All that said, I don't expect this to somehow make you happy. Zen's version of the Williams tables does not give you the experience you want with the devices you own. I can only encourage you to try it out on a friend's system that is PC, or even on the Switch. I have it set up on my PC in a cabinet configuration, something I've yet to accomplish with TPA (who's controller and menu options are the source of much frustration to me).

And by the way, welcome to the forum! Feel free to continue expressing yourself.

 

[Kolchak357]

Paul I am with you. I play on iOS mobile. The freemium model has killed it for me. Games like this usually stay on my iPad for less than an hour. I still have the Williams app because I love pinball and can’t bring myself to delete it. But I haven’t touched it in many months. It just sits there taking up space. It’s really a heartbreaker for me. I had such high hopes when Zen picked up the Bally/Williams license.

 

[Naildriver74]

You two are not alone

 

[yespage]

Paul I am with you. I play on iOS mobile.

Do you also have sex with your clothes on? The idea of pinball on a tablet or phone (eek!) just makes no sense to me. The experience is extremely confined.

 

[PaulJansen]

Hi, with TPA the controller just works fine! And with it, the fun is maximised, it gives you more the feeling to play on the real tables. And with TPA, it just works! Zen allways give me the felling that something is wrong, broken or not complete. I have had some email contact with Zen regarding my complaints about the mobile version. I am sorry to say it but they gave me the bull**** bingo feeling, in plain Dutch: lulkoekbingo. Copy paste answers like: we are learning, we are happy with your feedback, that’s a good idea. I only missed: thank you for being not happy with us ��. What I miss with Zen is the capital P for PASSION. With TPA I felt passion. I simply don’t believe and trust Zen. They are in for the money. The full satisfaction that I had with TPA is stolen. The alternative to it is not right. The new supplier offers a product that is incomplete and as disabled as I am in my wheelchair ����*�� It is pitty to conclude that the product for Mac Users has been turned back. A pittyThe time for digital Pinball in 2020 has been turned back.....a pitty

 

[wolfson]

now I know why I love my consoles , simple like my pea brain !!! about Zen with bringing out 18 tables PaulJansen , that`s a good amount of tables for them , I have every table that`s out there .

 

[Cloda]

It is no popular statement I’m introducing here. It is sur ton to dislike Pinball Arcade and to worship the Williams tables from Zen. Everywhere I read the same Zen fan statements: tables are beautiful done, physics are jawdropping and man, what are the TPA tables crude when compared. I wonder why! Really, I don’t like Zen at all and to make a statement: with Zen making Williams tables I am not happy at all! Here are some reasons:

None of your complaints show in anyway that TPA's core game is in anyway better than Zen's by the way. Zen's graphics, ball and flippers physics, realistic nudging etc. are just plain and simple better. You have specific issues that are annoying you regarding your the platforms you play on. The old adage of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater is apt here ;-)

I initially played on Mac but quickly realised that it will never satisfy my wants and needs for the game. I bought and Xbox One and love playing FX3 to bits on it.
I played happily with a controller on Mac using a free app called Enjoyable (https://yukkurigames.com/enjoyable/)... what annoyed me from the Mac app was mostly that it didn't have online leaderboards and tournaments.

 

[dmil666]

2. Have you tried contacting customer support about controller support? Tried using a 3rd party app? I mean, part of me asks why you are doing any gaming at all on a Mac, but that's just me! I personally use a PS4 controller on my PC, and when I play TPA I have to use a 3rd party app to make it work, same with FX2.

3. Same situation, I don't know about controller support at all with phones or tablets. I thought iOS was supposed to be introducing support for PS4 controllers, but I don't know if that has happened yet.

4. Again, contact Zen customer support and see if there is a work around.

I just had a recent experience with Zen on these 3 points only on Android. My Note 9 just upgraded to Android 10 which I figured was a good thing, until I went to play Zen Williams pinball on my phone. I always use an Xbox controller because I'm an old (just turned 65) and I have problems with phone touch screens (hence the Note 9 with a stylus). I plugged in an Xbox elite series one controller and chose a challenge table and as soon as I launched the ball both flippers lock in the up position. The right joystick now moves the flippers (rather weirdly) instead of launching the ball with the plunger. It does the same with an Xbox One controller and a Scuff Premier controller. A Playstation controller kind of works, except the right joystick moves the flippers too and the triggers don't function. The Xbox Elite series 2 controllers work like a champ, but it's the only one.
I contacted Zen technical support about the problem with the Android 10 update and here is their response, verbatim:

"Hi dmill666,

Thanks for contacting us!

Unfortunately, officially Williams Pinball doesn't support controllers, that could be the reason that an update could cause your controllers not to work.

Sorry about that, please let me know if I could help you with anything else!

Best regards,
Bence Banszki
Community Representative
Zen Studios"

I guess this is the best that Zen can do? I'm unimpressed.
Has anyone else gotten blown off by Zen when asking for help?

 

[shutyertrap]

What I miss with Zen is the capital P for PASSION. With TPA I felt passion. I simply don’t believe and trust Zen. They are in for the money. The full satisfaction that I had with TPA is stolen. The alternative to it is not right. The new supplier offers a product that is incomplete and as disabled as I am in my wheelchair ����*�� It is pitty to conclude that the product for Mac Users has been turned back. A pittyThe time for digital Pinball in 2020 has been turned back.....a pitty

This right here is utter bullsh*t. I have interviewed and chatted with a few members of the Zen team, and they are extremely passionate about pinball. Deep, a table designer and lead on perfecting the physics for Williams, has shown nothing but commitment to pinball. He has used high speed cameras to capture exact ball and flipper behavior, worked on creating different surface tensions for the playfield to affect actual ball spin. Mel Kirk, a frequent guest on our BlahCade Pinball Podcast, can talk for hours about pinball and his enjoyment of it. Even from the earliest of tables Zen made, polish on the final product has never been phoned in or had corners cut when it comes to how the tables play.

These sames sort of claims of "only in it for the money" were also levied against FarSight, and there were some extremely passionate people there too, Norman (who retired right before the licensing fiasco) chief among them. The problem FarSight had was their aspirations were hindered by time and resources. Are there people that work at both these studios who couldn't care less about pinball? Absolutely, and I have stories I can't tell about TPA that would confirm this. Shoot, check out their history of software titles prior to pinball and you'll discover they are a contract studio, making games for hire. I'm not trying to knock FarSight, I like the guys I've met up there, but this pedestal you are putting TPA on is extremely unstable.

And you know, it sounds like you are perfectly happy with TPA. It works for you and your setup. Did you come late to the party and miss out on the Williams/Bally titles? I can understand the criticism of Zen if you did, as there are titles you want but can't play in a manner suiting to you. But if you already have all the tables in TPA, what's the issue? Just play that. Nobody has 'stolen' what you already have.

 

[PaulJansen]

This right here is utter bullsh*t.

It is nothing more than my opinion, how I experience it or how I feel it. Nothing less and nothing more. We agree to disagree?

 

[Naildriver74]

He was just as passionate about Pinball Arcade at one time.

 

[Hammerjoe]

I only play the mobile Williams game on a 10" tablet.

I am frustrated with the game because of its gameplay.
Nudge is impractical and zen did not provide any options for it so in a tablet it cant be used.
And that makes the tables a lot harder.
Add to that, I believe that the game somehow changes its dynamics because sometimes its impossible to keep a ball in game and then the next one in the same table, one ball is enough to complete the challenge easily.

But because its basically impossible to use nudge then some tables are literally unplayable. (Im thinking of safecracker)

I doubt very much that these tables behave like this in real life, because I doubt anyone would waste any money playing a game that is over after 15 seconds.

Another aspect I have found about the game is multiball. In my experience multiball is but useless because of the loss of the balls that is literally immediate.
I have lost count of the number of times I get multiball and the balls look like they get in line to be drained right away.

In some cases I dont even get to touch them.

So I have been grinding the challenges to get the parts and got all the tables to level 3 already but the fun is starting to wear thin on me for these reasons.
I want to have fun, but when Im playing a 5 minute challenge that has over 20,30 ball drains it sucks the fun out of it and it gets boring.
So I am hoping to get new tables to renew my excitment for the game.

 

[PaulJansen]

He was just as passionate about Pinball Arcade at one time.

Hahahahaha. Seriously, there was no competition then.

 

[PaulJansen]

In reply to Hammer Joe: I totally agree with you! It is a pitty that the game is reduced to shoot as many balls in a limited period of time. That is no legacy play of these beautiful tables. Gone is the gameplay, gone is the excitement to play the story, gone is the thrill to do it within 3 balls. It is reduced to shoot and forget. I don’t care which level I am on. I just want to play as real as possible. Let me pay you money and you give me a beautiful copy of the real thing!

 

[shutyertrap]

I only play the mobile Williams game on a 10" tablet.

I am frustrated with the game because of its gameplay.
Nudge is impractical and zen did not provide any options for it.
And that makes the tables alot harder.

But because its basically impossible to use nudge the some tables are literally unplayable.

I doubt very much that these tables behave like this in real life, because I doubt anyone would waste any money playing a game that is over after 15 seconds.

Even in real life, I rarely nudge, which makes it amusing to me to hear you say it renders the tables unplayable. Does it make playing them like a top seeded pro impossible? That I’ll buy, but I do just fine in online tournaments without nudging, and I have no excuses not to as I play with a controller.

As for how these play in real life, have you ever heard the term “House ball”? Although not designed this way, I have played many a table that do to whatever circumstances, drained the ball without ever touching my flipper. And yes, people quickly stopped dropping quarters into them which is why a game like Twilight Zone came out with a mod for all the ball drains on the left from balls coming out the pop bumpers.

One other thing...the ‘Zen’ physics play different from real tables, the Pro physics are more spot on. It’s most noticeable with how balls behave going around orbits and dead passing off flippers. Also, the flipper angle is higher with Zen physics (same angle that TPA uses actually), but true to real tables with Pro.

 

[shutyertrap]

Hahahahaha. Seriously, there was no competition then.

TPA was like eating a nice top sirloin steak, when all other digital pinball was hamburger at best. But then Zen comes along and is filet mignon. Both are cuts of steak, which is great, and until I tasted the filet I didn’t know any better, but now I do.

 

[Hammerjoe]

Even in real life, I rarely nudge, which makes it amusing to me to hear you say it renders the tables unplayable. Does it make playing them like a top seeded pro impossible? That I’ll buy, but I do just fine in online tournaments without nudging, and I have no excuses not to as I play with a controller.

As for how these play in real life, have you ever heard the term “House ball”? Although not designed this way, I have played many a table that do to whatever circumstances, drained the ball without ever touching my flipper. And yes, people quickly stopped dropping quarters into them which is why a game like Twilight Zone came out with a mod for all the ball drains on the left from balls coming out the pop bumpers.

One other thing...the ‘Zen’ physics play different from real tables, the Pro physics are more spot on. It’s most noticeable with how balls behave going around orbits and dead passing off flippers. Also, the flipper angle is higher with Zen physics (same angle that TPA uses actually), but true to real tables with Pro.

Another thing speaking of physics, I find that the flippers are unpredictable which makes skill shots very hard.
I want to hit something and try to get the ball at the right spot in the flipper to shoot it and it goes somewhere else I would not expect. Its like that the accuracy for shoots is down to the pixel, one pixel less and the ball goes right one pixel over it goes all the way to the right.

For example in fish tales I can not shoot the left side (the one that give jackpot with multiball). I have tried many times and never succeeded. Every time it happened it was not on purposes.

This is my experience on an android tablet, hopefully it works better with a pc.

 

[shutyertrap]

For example in fish tales I can not shoot the left side (the one that give jackpot with multiball). I have tried many times and never succeeded. Every time it happened it was not on purposes.

This is my experience on an android tablet, hopefully it works better with a pc.

I’ve yet to even come close to mastering that shot either, but I can nail the right orbit and lock balls like a boss. AFM I have pretty well dialed in, but Junk Yard’s left ramps are impossible to me. Thing is, same situation on the real table. We all got kinda used to the vacuum ramps of TPA, which always screwed up my muscle memory when I came across a real machine. With Zen, I find a lot of it translates perfectly whether playing digitally or in person.