shadowjuggalo
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- May 10, 2016
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Welcome Back to Digital Pinball Fans - please read this first
Physics engine discussion
- Thread starter vikingerik
- Start date
I consider this thread a success (beyond it being a really fun read and a gathering of some of the brightest folks on the forum - myself excluded!) simply due to the fact that Farsight Mike stopped by to participate. Super glad their team is listening.
I have an economic appeal to make: I spent three days last weekend at Pinagogo Pinball Festival in Dixon, Ca. Over three hundred machines! This was their twentieth anniversary. This event has grown exponentially, and exploded this last year. I can't tell you how many pinball enthusiasts I talked to who are thinking or planning to open their own barcades.
The point is this: Real pinball is set for a second "golden age" not seen since the early 90s. As the hobby attracts more people, many if not most of these folks are going to spill over into new Farsight customers.
If you start with TPA, and then move to real pinball, TPA's pong-like physics are ok. If you didn't "come from" real pinball, you don't have much basis for comparison. But, if you start with real pinball and move to TPA, you're critical. You think, "Sheesh - nice graphics, but the ball ain't wild!"
Farsight has a real opportunity here with Physics 4.0 and SPA to win the hearts of a generation of new real-pinballers who want the "ball is wild" experience on their devices at home. Future-proof for the upcoming real-pinball explosion by at least including an "Expert Mode" with convincing physics!
The ball "moves in its own coordinate system on the playfield. The rendering system that draws it on the screen operates independently from its movement." Video pinball isn't bound by constraints imposed by 60 hz refresh rate. Create an aiming framework that relies not on current "large grain size" ball drawing, but rather upon the internal coordinate system (which can exist at infinitely more detailed resolution).
Free the ball - let it be wild in SPA!
I have an economic appeal to make: I spent three days last weekend at Pinagogo Pinball Festival in Dixon, Ca. Over three hundred machines! This was their twentieth anniversary. This event has grown exponentially, and exploded this last year. I can't tell you how many pinball enthusiasts I talked to who are thinking or planning to open their own barcades.
The point is this: Real pinball is set for a second "golden age" not seen since the early 90s. As the hobby attracts more people, many if not most of these folks are going to spill over into new Farsight customers.
If you start with TPA, and then move to real pinball, TPA's pong-like physics are ok. If you didn't "come from" real pinball, you don't have much basis for comparison. But, if you start with real pinball and move to TPA, you're critical. You think, "Sheesh - nice graphics, but the ball ain't wild!"
Farsight has a real opportunity here with Physics 4.0 and SPA to win the hearts of a generation of new real-pinballers who want the "ball is wild" experience on their devices at home. Future-proof for the upcoming real-pinball explosion by at least including an "Expert Mode" with convincing physics!
The ball "moves in its own coordinate system on the playfield. The rendering system that draws it on the screen operates independently from its movement." Video pinball isn't bound by constraints imposed by 60 hz refresh rate. Create an aiming framework that relies not on current "large grain size" ball drawing, but rather upon the internal coordinate system (which can exist at infinitely more detailed resolution).
Free the ball - let it be wild in SPA!
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EldarOfSuburbia
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Yes! Free my shiny metal balls!
invitro
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That'd be nice, but it won't be unless there's a boom in the number of machines produced, and in the number of machines on location. And while there's a lot of noise about a bunch of new manufacturers, and it's some wonderful noise, they're only making up to 250 machines for each of their tables. I'm not sure there's even more tables now than in around 2003-2004, which I think was the last peak with LotR and TSPP. And Stern has had only one new table in 2016, which doesn't support the notion of a boom.
Focusing on number of fresh off the line games, perhaps not. But consider all the old legacy games being restored and refurbished and pushed out to local barcades. Signs of a boom / resurgence are certainly present in the Ca. Bay Area and Portland, Oregon. Typically bellwether spots for trends.
invitro
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Sounds like a golden age for old machines in SF and Portland then, not a general pinball golden age.
invitro
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Well, I'm not wrong, but I do hope you're right that a golden age is comingHa! We'll see. I bet you and I both hope you're wrong (with respect to you, of course, invitro)!
. (Though as someone who lived the 1990's golden age, I'm not sure if my heart can take that much fun again as I'm not a kid any more...)Have you ever asked those barcade owners why they're not buying more new Stern machines? Are they that much more expensive than a restored/refurbished WMS/Williams machine, assuming that those are the legacy games you're talking about? Or have they tried Sterns, and the hipsters (it sounds like we're talking about hipsters here) don't want them, but the WMS machines instead?
I'm no economist, and I guess there hasn't been that much inflation in 20 years, but I remember new WMS machines costing around $5000 back in around 1996. My point being that new Pro-edition Sterns probably aren't more expensive than new machines were in the 1990's, if my facts are correct anyway.
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"Well, I'm not wrong, but I do hope you're right that a golden age is coming." Yes -- that's what I meant. Forgive my clumsy communication.
Yes - we're talking largely about hipsters, but not entirely. I'm fine with hipsters, btw. Each to his / her own. SF and Portland - yes: high hipster quotient (folks showing interest in both fashion and pinball). Sacramento, Concord, El Cerrito, Alemeda are nicely represented by a diverse mix of players / ages.
I haven't asked owners about Sterns vs older machines, but newer Sterns are certainly in the mix: ACDC, GB, Metallica, GoT, Star Trek, etc. as are Jersey Jacks -- both WOZ and Hobbit.
Golden Age upcoming, I tell ya!
Yes - we're talking largely about hipsters, but not entirely. I'm fine with hipsters, btw. Each to his / her own. SF and Portland - yes: high hipster quotient (folks showing interest in both fashion and pinball). Sacramento, Concord, El Cerrito, Alemeda are nicely represented by a diverse mix of players / ages.
I haven't asked owners about Sterns vs older machines, but newer Sterns are certainly in the mix: ACDC, GB, Metallica, GoT, Star Trek, etc. as are Jersey Jacks -- both WOZ and Hobbit.
Golden Age upcoming, I tell ya!
invitro
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How about sexes? The usual 90% male? Just curious as always
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Yes - this is encouraging also. More women on the scene. One young lady took Grand Champion on Taxi at Pinagogo. Super cool.
Still a very male-centric hobby around here, but seems to be moving in the right direction. I see women playing pinball at Coin-Op in Sacramento frequently.
Still a very male-centric hobby around here, but seems to be moving in the right direction. I see women playing pinball at Coin-Op in Sacramento frequently.
suffocater
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- Apr 4, 2015
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- correct bouncing off rubbers.
Look at old EM-Machines at thop rollover for example and then look what happens in TPA.
Look at old EM-Machines at thop rollover for example and then look what happens in TPA.
The ball leaving the table.
This happens quite often in games where the ball will leave the table and hit the glass or hop over things. I've had balls hop from the table on to a habit trail. Or hop over the side of a ramp. Or frustratingly hop over the bumpers and in to an outlane.
This happens quite often in games where the ball will leave the table and hit the glass or hop over things. I've had balls hop from the table on to a habit trail. Or hop over the side of a ramp. Or frustratingly hop over the bumpers and in to an outlane.
vikingerik
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- Nov 6, 2013
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I don't want more features from Farsight. They'd be as canned and crudely implemented as the live catches. And we wouldn't see them on any old tables for the same reason we never saw physics 3.0 other than the catches, that all the shooting angles would need to be retuned.
For example, doing ball spin correctly means the spin the ball acquires during a flipper stroke: spin applied as the stroke begins affects its angle as it comes off the flipper, which ruins all the tuning. Farsight couldn't feasibly retune dozens of tables and hundreds of shots to account for that. At best, Farsight would hardcode spin values like those transfer points.
Existing engines like Unity wouldn't be suitable for this. A general-purpose engine wouldn't have the super-fine details of the interaction between rubber and metal that's so crucial for proper pinball behavior. At best Unity would just recreate what TPA already has.
For example, doing ball spin correctly means the spin the ball acquires during a flipper stroke: spin applied as the stroke begins affects its angle as it comes off the flipper, which ruins all the tuning. Farsight couldn't feasibly retune dozens of tables and hundreds of shots to account for that. At best, Farsight would hardcode spin values like those transfer points.
Existing engines like Unity wouldn't be suitable for this. A general-purpose engine wouldn't have the super-fine details of the interaction between rubber and metal that's so crucial for proper pinball behavior. At best Unity would just recreate what TPA already has.
Great suggestions, guys. Personally, I have faith in Farsight to implement satisfying improvements to the engine in Physics 4.0. The flipper physics improvements introduced with 3.0 aren't perfect, but they're at least "evolving." I can see the live catches being made more realistic. Doesn't seem to me we're asking for the impossible here! If VP can implement ball spin, for example, as a community based non-proprietary project, I'm confident FS can deliver.
I agree that some inclusion of the "air ball" effect would be a welcome addition, and a first in video-pinball. No one has done this yet. It's part of the game. Even on my real mid-nineties Stargate pinball in my garage at home, the ball leaps off the table, sometimes even hitting the glass. On ACDC the ball hops up into the air about every 8 shots or so. It's a very common experience that really adds to the excitement.
I agree that some inclusion of the "air ball" effect would be a welcome addition, and a first in video-pinball. No one has done this yet. It's part of the game. Even on my real mid-nineties Stargate pinball in my garage at home, the ball leaps off the table, sometimes even hitting the glass. On ACDC the ball hops up into the air about every 8 shots or so. It's a very common experience that really adds to the excitement.
vikingerik
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Pro Pinball did this nineteen years ago. Timeshock allows airballs. BRUSA can even have them jump onto a ramp habitrail.
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