Physics of Zen Pinball

[Russell Bergman]

TPA physics are much more on par from a real pinball machine than zen, which I call zen machines pinball machines on training wheels. Zen's flippers are too close together, you basically hit a drop target and you keep hearing "left kickback activated" and "right kickback activated"....which results with 16 hour gameplay with little ball loss, their flippers aren't strong enough so over 75% of the time when you shoot a ball to go up a ramp in the back, it comes back down WAY TOO MUCH, plus when I catch a ball going down the flipper outlane, I have to wait five seconds for the ball to stop spinning just to make a shot. On another note, with their latest offerings, I can recite many repeticious voiceover work. I still have Rick Jones telling me how Bruce Banner turned into the Hulk. I like Zen, but I like their earlier tables. They are too focused on taking the ball off the table with too much hocus pocus. It doesn't feel like pinball anymore. This is just my opinion as an avid pinball player.

 

[Pinballfan69]

I have to step into this debate, because I'm baffled by what I see here.

I own 14 pinball machines and play real pinball every single day. I own many of the games that are re-created on TPA, so I have a direct comparison to evaluate the physics of both TPA and Zen. I can say, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Zen has the more realistic physics by far.

TPA's physics are very floaty, and there are tons of things with it that annoy the living crap out of me, like the ball bouncing halfway up the playfield from a raised flipper and the odd moments where a poorly-hit ball will suddenly correct course and accelerate up a ramp (this is especially bad on TPA's CFTBL). The inability to perform drop catches and live catches in TPA is maddening, since they are critical for control in real-life pinball. Cradle separations don't work, post transfers are too difficult, and alley passes are too easy. The flippers seem to have no elasticity and the ball seems to have no spin in TPA. That means that you can forget about controlling the ball, and are relegated to a run-and-gun style of play. That's fine for games like Black Hole and Medieval Madness, but it simply kills the gameplay on games like TOTAN and RBION, which require more control and stop-and-go play.

Zen, on the other hand, has much more realistic physics. You can drop catch, you can live catch, you can cradle separate, you can flick pass, post transfer. Basically, if you can do it in real life, you can do it in Zen. Case in point is the kickout scoops. Take, for instance, Epic Quest in Zen. It fires the ball hard at the flipper, but you can control it with a drop catch, and the ball rolls up the flipper just into the inlane and stops. That's more or less how I can control the kickouts on my real TZ, TAF, MM, WW, NGG and FH machines, for instance. What about TPA? Let's look at TOM. The ball fires out of the scoop, and no matter what you do, the ball will bounce crazily off the flipper halfway up the playfield. And, if it gets near a ramp, it will inexplicably roll up and around the ramp!

As for those who say the ball is too heavy and spins too much on Zen, I ask you: have you ever held a real pinball in your hands?? It's a steel ball bearing that is very heavy for its size. It also spins quite a bit during real gameplay, and that spin is critical to controlling the ball and selecting shots. Zen may feel "off" to some of you, because the physics are much more realistic than any simulation that has come before it.

As far as I'm concerned, there's room in town for both games. I wish the flipper spacing on Zen were a little wider, and that the nudging on the iPad were a bit better. It's great to see Farsight re-creating the real pins of yesteryear, and I applaud their attention to detail in terms of playfield modeling and software emulation (although why does every machine in TPA show a credit dot?). If TPA could have Zen's physics, life would be good. As it stands, as someone with unfettered access to the real thing, I much prefer Zen to TPA.

Great post. I too wish that Zen flipper spacing were a bit farther apart. That said the closest the physics that I enjoy is Funhouse and Bride of pinbot. I find myself playing those tables more than MM CV or even TOM (which is my favorite table that FS has brought out for TPA) I just wish that some of the tables in TPA had the same physics as the 2 I play. Other than that having both games I still play Zen more.

Although I can see where some players have their issues. There are times when playing Zen and Marvel that the games take forever or even have marathon games. I recall playing World War Hulk and played for over and hour with multitude of extra balls. Sometimes I get that same feeling playing Bride but with bride you can lose balls fairly quickly do to the outlanes.

Like you if TPA had the same or even similar Physics that ZEN has, I would be in pinball heaven. Anyway not trying to continue the FS vs Zen debate.

TPA physics are much more on par from a real pinball machine than zen, which I call zen machines pinball machines on training wheels. Zen's flippers are too close together, you basically hit a drop target and you keep hearing "left kickback activated" and "right kickback activated"....which results with 16 hour gameplay with little ball loss, their flippers aren't strong enough so over 75% of the time when you shoot a ball to go up a ramp in the back, it comes back down WAY TOO MUCH, plus when I catch a ball going down the flipper outlane, I have to wait five seconds for the ball to stop spinning just to make a shot. On another note, with their latest offerings, I can recite many repeticious voiceover work. I still have Rick Jones telling me how Bruce Banner turned into the Hulk. I like Zen, but I like their earlier tables. They are too focused on taking the ball off the table with too much hocus pocus. It doesn't feel like pinball anymore. This is just my opinion as an avid pinball player.

That is where the difference with pinball purists and enthusiasts. I'm an enthusiast and love everything pinball. I like the obscure 'taking the ball off the table with too much hocus pocus' It adds a different aspect to it. There are some tables in Zen that act like real tables especially some of their early tables. Zen like to take a different approach to pinball and that's ok. It may not be real pinball but it's still fun.

on the other hand the comment about the flippers is interesting. I feel in TPA they are limp and you really can't do accurate shots like you can in Zen. There are some instances where I'm trying to shoot at target on the sides in TPA and can't even do that without it draining down the middle. Letting the ball roll down the flipper and taking a shot seems more like guess work where on a real table (and in most cases Zen) you can be more accurate with practice. I find that even in trying to practice a shot it's still 'guess work'

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I'm staying out of the whole Zen physics discussion (I tried the FX2 demo; it's just not my cup of tea I'm afraid), but I do have one comment on:

I feel in TPA they are limp and you really can't do accurate shots like you can in Zen. There are some instances where I'm trying to shoot at target on the sides in TPA and can't even do that without it draining down the middle. Letting the ball roll down the flipper and taking a shot seems more like guess work where on a real table (and in most cases Zen) you can be more accurate with practice. I find that even in trying to practice a shot it's still 'guess work'

You may be suffering from the PS3's lag issues if that is the case. On the iPad 3 and the 360, once you find the sweet spot on the flipper for a particular shot, it doesn't move. This sweet spot will also correspond with the sweet spot on the physical table's flippers, assuming the table in question is in good repair. (All bets are off if the operator's been lax with maintenance.)

It's accurate enough that I was able to play a real RBION for the first time without the usual shot-finding process I normally have to go through when faced with an unfamiliar table.

 

[Kaoru]

To me those epic marathon sessions seem like urban legends. My longest Zen game probably rivals one of my shorter TPA games. I always hear about these tables being way too easy because the flippers are too close together and yet I witness the ball slipping through the center all the time. (And I'd love to save the ball, really! But nudging never does anything, I could just as well try to change the ball's course by blowing at the screen.)

 

[Carl Spiby]

I can't see there being any drastic changes to TPA physics, agree'd they're not perfect but I don't know if the can improve on them, the engine maybe doesn't allow them to simulate spin on the ball.

 

[shutyertrap]

To me those epic marathon sessions seem like urban legends. My longest Zen game probably rivals one of my shorter TPA games. I always hear about these tables being way too easy because the flippers are too close together and yet I witness the ball slipping through the center all the time. (And I'd love to save the ball, really! But nudging never does anything, I could just as well try to change the ball's course by blowing at the screen.)

I one time played Moon Knight for an hour and a half. That's the longest I've ever had. I've played RBION for 45 min on multiple occasions, same with MM and BoP. I agree with you, the way people throw out epic length games and how they had to turn off the table cause they had too many extra balls and were bored. I had that happen to me once on a real table, Space Shuttle, but never in Zen or TPA.

This nonsense of having to choose between games rather than enjoying them both reminds me of when Guitar Hero was going against Rock Band. People made it out like you could only own one, and then complain when the other got songs they wanted. I owned both and loved both. Same here. I don't think classic table design can be beat (thank you TPA) but I like the balance Zen has found with fantasy tables that don't stretch the realities of pinball too far.

Nobody was complaining about Zen before TPA, no reason both can't exist side by side now. Just don't be surprised when you do find an actual table to find yourself saying, "hey I never was able to do THAT in TPA, and how come by ball isn't magically floating all the way around the ramp instead of coming back down like it is now?".

 

[Richard B]

I can't see there being any drastic changes to TPA physics, agree'd they're not perfect but I don't know if the can improve on them, the engine maybe doesn't allow them to simulate spin on the ball.

They've got a good core engine. Their aiming system is the best I've seen, and the ball seems to operate under physics rather than scripts and "dice rolls". There are things that can be fixed, however. As mentioned so many times before, by me and others, the ball is too bouncy, and accelerates too easily. You also can't pull off live catches, drop stops, cradle separations, and flick passes, though the latter two are only recently being incorporated into video pinball games. These techniques are essential for pulling off monster scores.
To their credit, they have made some improvements with CFTBL. The bounciness has been toned down, and post transfers are much easier to pull off than they have been in previous tables. FS also said they are going to address the flipper interaction, but one table at a time. If the engine can't simulate spin, they could modify it so it does, but they probably want to get the core engine perfected before adding new variables.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

I one time played Moon Knight for an hour and a half. That's the longest I've ever had. I've played RBION for 45 min on multiple occasions, same with MM and BoP. I agree with you, the way people throw out epic length games and how they had to turn off the table cause they had too many extra balls and were bored. I had that happen to me once on a real table, Space Shuttle, but never in Zen or TPA.

The only time that ever happened to me was in Pinball Hall of Fame, and it was on Space Shuttle! That table can give you a ridiculous number of extra balls.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I one time played Moon Knight for an hour and a half. That's the longest I've ever had. I've played RBION for 45 min on multiple occasions, same with MM and BoP. I agree with you, the way people throw out epic length games and how they had to turn off the table cause they had too many extra balls and were bored. I had that happen to me once on a real table, Space Shuttle, but never in Zen or TPA.

This nonsense of having to choose between games rather than enjoying them both reminds me of when Guitar Hero was going against Rock Band. People made it out like you could only own one, and then complain when the other got songs they wanted. I owned both and loved both. Same here. I don't think classic table design can be beat (thank you TPA) but I like the balance Zen has found with fantasy tables that don't stretch the realities of pinball too far.

Nobody was complaining about Zen before TPA, no reason both can't exist side by side now. Just don't be surprised when you do find an actual table to find yourself saying, "hey I never was able to do THAT in TPA, and how come by ball isn't magically floating all the way around the ramp instead of coming back down like it is now?".

I complained about the flipper gap on Zen's forum before TPA came out, and they told me they weren't going to change it because they wanted their game to be easier for casual gamers.

I'm glad we have two options, and I think it's perfectly fine to enjoy both....but it's also OK if someone chooses one game over the other, depending on personal taste. Some people like the cartoonish NBA Jam, but some prefer the realism of NBA 2K...just because they're both basketball games doesn't mean a basketball fan has to enjoy both......some people like the arcadey Need For Speed, but others prefer the simulation of Gran Turismo or Forza.....it's the same for pinball. I personally don't enjoy Zen compared to TPA, but it's certainly fine if others do or enjoy both. I'm just glad we have both options.

In regards to your last paragraph, I don't really get the "magically floating around ramps" thing, but also don't be surprised if you play a real machine and notice that the ball is much harder to control compared to Zen. I could overlook the flipper gap in Zen if the ball control was more realistic, but it's just way to easy to stop the ball compared to real pinball. My wife had actually never played pinball before, and she started out on Zen since I knew it'd be easier for her. So when she tried out a real machine, the first thing she said was, "hey, why does the ball keep bouncing away from my flipper when I try to trap it?".

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Just don't be surprised when you do find an actual table to find yourself saying, "hey I never was able to do THAT in TPA, and how come by ball isn't magically floating all the way around the ramp instead of coming back down like it is now?".

What are you talking about with balls magically floating around ramps? The center ramp in Ripley's rejects so many of my shots that I used to wonder if FarSight got the steepness wrong. (I've since played a real RBION - they didn't.) Same for the left Bride ramp in Monster Bash.

 

[shutyertrap]

What are you talking about with balls magically floating around ramps? The center ramp in Ripley's rejects so many of my shots that I used to wonder if FarSight got the steepness wrong. (I've since played a real RBION - they didn't.) Same for the left Bride ramp in Monster Bash.

I've had balls magically get into the catapult trap on MM when they've slow rolled close by (one time it literally went through the wall), and on the peasant ramp I've had balls complete the circuit that should have rolled back down. Similar things have happened on TotAN. I'm not gonna hold what happened in PBHoF to what happens in TPA, but Whirlwind had the worst of this for me, where shooting the left ramp produced some amazing feats of impossible physics on ramps.

I was also referring to the bounciness off slingshots and flippers, as things that don't quite translate to real tables. Though Funhouse is pretty damn close in my estimation.

 

[Richard B]

Sometimes the ball does strange things in real life. I was recently playing a real Striker Xtreme, and the ball got airborne on several occasions. I ended up losing a ball because it leaped over the divider separating the in and outlanes, landed on the apron, then slowly rolled down the drain. If that happened in TPA, people would complain that wasn't realistic.

 

[Tabe]

To me those epic marathon sessions seem like urban legends. My longest Zen game probably rivals one of my shorter TPA games. I always hear about these tables being way too easy because the flippers are too close together and yet I witness the ball slipping through the center all the time. (And I'd love to save the ball, really! But nudging never does anything, I could just as well try to change the ball's course by blowing at the screen.)

Same here. I eventually gave up on Zen because I found it to be ridiculously hard with a large percentage of my games being very short. With TPA, my average game is a LOT longer, particularly if I'm playing Funhouse.

Tabe

 

[Richard B]

Yeah, I find Zen to be very difficult. While you might be able to keep a ball in play for a long time, scoring big points is more difficult, since only successfully completing missions, hitting multiball super jackpots, or hitting specific targets in a specific order will give you worthwhile scores, especially on Marvel tables. Simply shooting what's flashing is a good way to stay off the high score lists.
As for lengths, I've never had a Zen game last for more than 10 minutes, while a hot Ripley's can last 30-45 min.

 

[Jeff Strong]

My Zen games last much longer than TPA games, mainly due to the narrow flipper gap and because it's a piece of cake to trap the ball.....plus most tables have kickbacks on the outlanes and very long ball save timers.

 

[Richard B]

My Zen games last much longer than TPA games, mainly due to the narrow flipper gap and because it's a piece of cake to trap the ball.....plus most tables have kickbacks on the outlanes and very long ball save timers.

Yeah, those are some mighty generous ball saver times. Almost as long as the "guaranteed play time" on some mid-90s Sega machines, such as Apollo 13. Sad thing was, I used to select that, and always ended up playing longer than the standard 3 ball game.

 

[DopedToInfinity]

I like Zen (or Pinball FX2 as it's called on my Xbox 360) but since TPA was released I rarely play it for several reasons:

1 - I'm a nostalga hound, I love to play stuff from my past.
2 - The same music constantly playing throughout the game really grates on me (no new music for different modes, no music to add a sense of urgency on a hurry-up mode).
3 - All the tables feel too similar (I know they're quite different, & I can't put my finger on it, but they feel samey to me)
4 - I feel too chilled out when I play them, I like than "on edge" feeling you get when playing real pinball (which TPA recreates very well)

In all, I can't knock Zen, and I played the hell out of Pinball FX 1 when it was released about 5 years ago, but only because that was my only source of pinball (apart from vpinmame).

I don't mean to knock vpinmame (the table authors dedication and skills have kept me happy for around 10 years, and I still play VP), but TPA is my first choice by miles. (bugs aside)

 

[Fungi]

4 - I feel too chilled out when I play them..

Hmm, there must be some term people use for that. Ack, nevermind.

 

[Carl Spiby]

Was playing Zen on my Tablet last night, and found it too easy to control the ball, there's no bounciness on the flippers, you can trap every incoming ball simply by holding the flipper up.

I don't quite understand why people refer to Zen's physics as accurate :/

Ball feels like it's made from rubber too.

 

[Pinballfan69]

I don't quite understand why people refer to Zen's physics as accurate :/

Ball feels like it's made from rubber too.

Well accurate is not the word that I would have in mind. It's pretty good but as with any virtual pinball software, it could be better. That said both TPA and ZEN has their pluses and minuses. I like them both but prefer Zen more.