Plunger Strength, Has it Been Changed?

[Jim]

So, I haven't played TPA in roughly a week, but played some tonight. And I noticed mainly on Cirqus Voltaire and Tales of the Arabian Nights that it seemed much more difficult to plunge the ball with a certain level of power. It seemed like it would go immediately from a very low level (too low to leave the plunger chute), to full power, and there was very little middle-range there.

Maybe it's just because I haven't played in a week, but I seem to remember it being a bit more forgiving.
Just thought I would mention it in-case anyone else is having similar thoughts.

--Jim

 

[Byte]

I haven't noticed a change since 2.04 or so when everything was still fine... TZ is very difficult to plunge and that is where it matters most

 

[brakel]

After people complained that a full plunge on Taxi would give them a full spinner score every time and other easy plunger results, FS made a plunger change that introduced a random plunger result that seems to make a difference in power of up to about + or - 50%. This results in some really unrealistic results. What they should do is make a really wide null area in the middle that doesn't make much difference in plunger pull back and then sharply increase the sensitivity of the power as the pull back is near either end of the stroke. That would mimic most table plungers. You should never be rewarded with a skill shot from a full plunge. That makes it too easy. But when you pull the plunger back the same amount it should give you the same power give or take maybe 5%. FS has confused a random result with a realistic analog result.

 

[smbhax]

After people complained that a full plunge on Taxi would give them a full spinner score every time and other easy plunger results, FS made a plunger change that introduced a random plunger result that seems to make a difference in power of up to about + or - 50%. This results in some really unrealistic results. What they should do is make a really wide null area in the middle that doesn't make much difference in plunger pull back and then sharply increase the sensitivity of the power as the pull back is near either end of the stroke. That would mimic most table plungers. You should never be rewarded with a skill shot from a full plunge. That makes it too easy. But when you pull the plunger back the same amount it should give you the same power give or take maybe 5%. FS has confused a random result with a realistic analog result.

I haven't seen this random plunger strength you're talking about at all. For instance, just now I used the top-down plunger view in Big Shot, drawing back as near to the same mark each time as I could, allowing for the pixel or two of jiggle that seems to be build into the simulated plunger mechanism, and tried four releases: two bounced exactly the same way and went down the right rollover lane, one bounced back and forth pretty near exactly as those two had, but *just* snuck over the barrier to the left of that lane, and on the other one I didn't have a clean release of the analog stick: the tip of my finger caught on it just a bit so the plunger got held back a little and the ball went very short, but that was definitely user error. So in short it behaved as I would have expected a pinball plunger to behave, and with no significant random factor that I could see--and I haven't seen any real random plunger behavior in any TPA game I've played.

EDIT:

I just realized you could have been referring to the behavior of a full-strength plunge, rather than a measured one. This got me thinking, and after practicing a while on Big Shot's plunger, I found that if I managed to flick the analog stick in just a certain way, this "full strength" flick would usually result in the ball going through the left rollover. But here's the thing: "full strength" with a PS3 analog stick isn't a precise thing: the plastic in the stick and the board and the controller grip flexes, the rubber in the tip of the stick squishes, your fingertip squishes, the muscles in your hand and arm don't move precisely the same way from any one motion to the next, the timing of the various separate impulses in your brain varies from thought to thought. Heck even your bones squish a little. And let's not forget quantum mechanics! Anyway what I'm getting at is that I think the variation you get off a "full strength" plunge in TPA can be pretty much entirely accounted for in the physical makeup of the controller and your body, just as it is with a plunger on a real pinball machine; I don't think it involves any measurable randomization of simulated physics on the program's part.

 

[brakel]

That doesn't explain that pull backs that are done the exact same way end up with wildly different results after that update. And no I'm not talking just about a full plunger shot. I'm not the only person that reported this when the plunger modification went live.

 

[phreaker47]

Funny thing is, on Vita, you can still do PRECISE plunges when you use the touch screen. I imagine it's the same on Android/IOS. So they really only nerfed PS3/360 on this.

 

[smbhax]

PS3's feels the same as it's been for a while to me. I don't tend to do careful plunging though so maybe I missed something...but I think you guys are imagining things, if you must know. ; )

A touch screen is inherently more precise for this type of thing because your finger is the only moving part, and also it is easy to get a clean release. Kind of unfairly precise compared to what goes on on an actual pinball table, really!

 

[grashopper]

I think the plunge is easily reproducible on PS3. I can nail the yellow zone on TZ every time. I just wish they made the plunges all around more powerful like they were before the change a few patches ago. They went the wrong way...should have made them more powerful not weaker.

 

[smbhax]

You're a brave man to shoot the TZ skill shot, sir!

 

[Jim]

Well, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I don't have the newer tables yet, but on Tales of the Arabian Nights, I can easily hit the bottom snake charm plunger shot, (The top one is always a full plunge) , but it just feels to me as if there is no "middle area". Even if I'm very careful, it seems like the plunger goes right from "low power" to "high power" with an extremely small window of "medium". It just doesn't feel analog, which is strange when using an analog control stick which is supposedly replicating an analog plunger mechanism.

When I first downloaded the game on PS3, it didn't feel like this, and still doesn't on Android, so I was just wondering if it was changed recently.

--Jim

 

[Kolchak357]

Well, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I don't have the newer tables yet, but on Tales of the Arabian Nights, I can easily hit the bottom snake charm plunger shot, (The top one is always a full plunge) , but it just feels to me as if there is no "middle area". Even if I'm very careful, it seems like the plunger goes right from "low power" to "high power" with an extremely small window of "medium". It just doesn't feel analog, which is strange when using an analog control stick which is supposedly replicating an analog plunger mechanism.

When I first downloaded the game on PS3, it didn't feel like this, and still doesn't on Android, so I was just wondering if it was changed recently.

--Jim

It feels like this to as well, and I'm on iOS. The middle ground is very tough to find indeed.

 

[warh0g]

You seem to reach full plunge before the stick is at maximum. Also the plunger wobbles back and forth even if you hold it steady. Not to mention when the plunger is released and it misses the f*cking ball, does that ever happen on a real table?

 

[Jim]

You seem to reach full plunge before the stick is at maximum. Also the plunger wobbles back and forth even if you hold it steady. Not to mention when the plunger is released and it misses the f*cking ball, does that ever happen on a real table?

I've actually noticed that too, it happens rather frequently for me as well; about 1 out of every 5 plunges, it will miss entirely. I used to think that it was due to the way that I sometimes flick the analog stick, but since you mention it as well, perhaps there is another reason.

--Jim

 

[ER777]

Not to mention when the plunger is released and it misses the f*cking ball, does that ever happen on a real table?

I don't think that would be possible on a real table, unless something was very broken..

 

[smbhax]

I don't think that would be possible on a real table, unless something was very broken..

It's a bug. Happens every time if you hold the plunger back before the ball arrives.

 

[ER777]

It's a bug. Happens every time if you hold the plunger back before the ball arrives.

Yes, but he was asking if it could happen on a real pinball machine. We all know it happens in TPA.

 

[Jim]

It's a bug. Happens every time if you hold the plunger back before the ball arrives.

Thank you for that. Now I know what I was doing wrong. I was doing a quick flick on the stick (say that five times fast!) without waiting for the ball to actually settle in the plunger chute. It would seem if there's still any motion of the ball at all while it's in the chute, the plunger will miss no matter what. At-least now I can avoid it.


--Jim

 

[smbhax]

Yeah, drives me nuts because I like to work out some frustration with the plunger before the next ball gets in there. ; )

 

[DopedToInfinity]

Funny thing is, on Vita, you can still do PRECISE plunges when you use the touch screen. I imagine it's the same on Android/IOS. So they really only nerfed PS3/360 on this.

I know I'm bumping this thread, but as someone who picked up a vita in June and a PS3 in July this really stood out.

Being used to iOS TPA I have never had a problem with the plunger, but with the playstation versions there seems to be no rhyme nor reason about them, all or nothing with no middle-ground.

Plunging the ball to the upper-playfield on white water takes ages, either too-little or too-much. It really does seem to be all or nothing.

 

[Espy]

I know I'm bumping this thread, but as someone who picked up a vita in June and a PS3 in July this really stood out.

Being used to iOS TPA I have never had a problem with the plunger, but with the playstation versions there seems to be no rhyme nor reason about them, all or nothing with no middle-ground.

Plunging the ball to the upper-playfield on white water takes ages, either too-little or too-much. It really does seem to be all or nothing.

Unrelated to the current topic, but a left-nudge when the ball drops off the plunge lane sets up the skill shot quite nicely in WW

You seem to reach full plunge before the stick is at maximum. Also the plunger wobbles back and forth even if you hold it steady. Not to mention when the plunger is released and it misses the f*cking ball, does that ever happen on a real table?

That has happened to me too. Surprised no-one has mentioned how you can plunge the ball when it's half-way up the table! Like a failed plunge, the ball falls back down and you can fire it again when it's no-where near the plunger.