Portrait Centering: Flippers or Playfield?

[Crazy Newt]

I'm all for centering the playfield after seeing it in action. However, if the flippers could be centered while including the entire playfield on the screen, that might be ok, too. I like the idea of having the flippers centered, but not at the expense of having the playfield shifted so drastically with some table. My biggest issue with portrait mode is the image is skewed in many of the camera views. An example: with Medieval Madness, the "Shoot Again" indicator between the flippers is oval-shaped in all available portrait views except for view 4. Even view 1 is slightly skewed, although not by much. A true "3D" view should not alter or stretch the view when the camera angle is adjusted. It's annoying.

 

[goforthewall]

Doesn't "No Good Go(l)fers" already have the view centered on the playfield in the portrait view on PC? Can't really say I like it, but it probably just takes some getting used to...

 

[Roo]

My biggest issue with portrait mode is the image is skewed in many of the camera views. An example: with Medieval Madness, the "Shoot Again" indicator between the flippers is oval-shaped in all available portrait views except for view 4. Even view 1 is slightly skewed, although not by much. A true "3D" view should not alter or stretch the view when the camera angle is adjusted. It's annoying.

Well, I don't have the game in front of me right now, but of course a 2D circle would become an oval when viewed at an angle (like from the cameras that are low over the flippers). That's how 3D (i.e real life) works. Look at a 2D circle (e.g. a wheel, or the top of a coffee cup) from straight on and it looks like a circle. Look at it from an angle and it looks like a stretched oval.

 

[striggell]

Playfield

 

[Lobotomy]

All 2d shapes HAS to becomes oval just like Roo says when using different views.
I've been playing TPA on my cab and on my rotated 27" desktop monitor.
I think what we have to consider is that it has to be two different "modes", i "hate" the fact that it is centered on flippers when playing on the cab, but i like it when im playing with my keyboard at my desk, then ofcourse if you start to investigate the table instead of playing it, the feeling is wierd.

Desktop version: Centered at whatever
Cab Version: Definitely centered playfield (just like the real pins)

 

[Filip]

All 2d shapes HAS to becomes oval just like Roo says when using different views.
I've been playing TPA on my cab and on my rotated 27" desktop monitor.
I think what we have to consider is that it has to be two different "modes", i "hate" the fact that it is centered on flippers when playing on the cab, but i like it when im playing with my keyboard at my desk, then ofcourse if you start to investigate the table instead of playing it, the feeling is wierd.

Desktop version: Centered at whatever
Cab Version: Definitely centered playfield (just like the real pins)

I agree, so both should be available and the possibility to do more accurate settings as well if possible.

 

[dada8787]

Can u guys explain me what do you think about the "should be centered on the playfield instead"
Are you talking about looking at monitor from bird perspective or something else?
If you are talking about seeing it from up to down that's wrong , very wrong. You will not see any details on playfield in that case(think about drop targets etc... ).
Remember in that case you will see only flat playfield,and not real thing like you can see when you play real pinball.
Current portrait mode is good, they only need to fix of some things and it will be perfect.
Don't forget many people bought this tables (me included) because of current portrait mode, so they can not just take it out and implement something else (centered on the playfield )

 

[imagamejunky]

What we are talking about is moving the playfield to the left. So that it it's centered from left to right on the screen. I would love to see both options. But if they aren't willing to give us both options then they should change it. Remember, you are speaking for the minority (only 13% according to this poll as of today). The majority want this.

 

[Crazy Newt]

I understand how perspective can alter the shape of an object, but I still think that something is odd about the Shoot Again indicator with MM. In relation to all other circular objects on the table, only the Shoot Again circle appears to be stretched unnaturally.

Even with an extreme angle provided from Landscape View 4, things still appear to be mostly normal; although the Shoot Again indicator is still behaving erratically when compared to the rest of the table in almost every view, both landscape and portrait.

 

[RetroDude]

Those two views are fine the way they are.

It's all a matter of camera angles and field of view.
The closer the camera is, the wider angle is needed to show the entire play field.

The height of the camera above the play field also is a factor.

Think about playing on a real pinball machine.

Stand close to the machine and look at the back glass. You would be looking almost completely horizontally.

Now, from the same position, look at the instruction card. You would be looking close to straight down.

At the angles shown, the circles on the top of the play field would be viewed at an angle closer to horizontal than the circle between the flippers, which would be close to vertical.

Circles at the shallower angles towards the top of the play field would appear as wider and shorter ovals than those nearest the bottom of the play field.

The closer you are to viewing the play field at a 90 degree angle, the closer circular features will be to appearing as perfect circles. The shallower the angle, the more oval they appear.

That's exactly what's shown in your pictures.

The first picture is from a much higher camera than is the second picture.

The DIFFERENCE in camera angles between the top and bottom of the play field is quite different in each view.
In the top down view, the angles are very similar for the top and bottom edge.
In the front view, the angles to the "shoot again" and the turrets of the castle are WILDLY different.

 

[RetroDude]

I tried to find a better line drawing example, but this might help.

Look at how the angle from the eye or camera is horizontal for some of the object, but at nearly. 45 degree angle up and dewn for other parts of the same object.

Same principle.

When representing normal human vision in the table views, the angle of view to different parts of the table vary considerably,and can change quite dramatically with different camera positions.

 

[Crazy Newt]

Yes, the basic properties of physics have not changed since I was in college back in the 80's.

My point is that the Shoot Again indicator on this machine seems out of place, and it does not appear to be an optical illusion from a viewing perspective. Why would the spherical ball not also become oddly egg-shaped when passing between the flippers in portrait mode's view 3?

It does not look right to me, and not all of the tables with similar indicators behave the same way.

When I get home tonight I will have to look with the Pro Mode option to see how the silkscreen images and 3D objects behave when scrolling around the table. I did make quick comparisons from similar angles of real MM tables, although the image was not really large enough to make a 1:1 comparison with the game view.

 

[vikingerik]

My point is that the Shoot Again indicator on this machine seems out of place, and it does not appear to be an optical illusion from a viewing perspective. Why would the spherical ball not also become oddly egg-shaped when passing between the flippers in portrait mode's view 3?

A sphere is not a circle. Take a coin and hold it horizontally near eye level at a shallow sight angle. It will look oval.

If it still looks circular, meaning you can't get your brain to edit past the perspective angle, take a picture at that angle and trace the coin's outline in the 2D projection. It will be oval.

Spherical objects like a pinball don't do that because they present a circular cross-section when viewed from any angle in 3D.

 

[lettuce]

Im not sure on this, guess id have to see the same table with both view points and then decide!. What does the PC version of Pinball FX 2 currently use as that looks ok.

Also can FS please move the DMD to the center of the screen when in portrait mode please, rather than it being towards the left as it is atm!?

 

[Crazy Newt]

A sphere is not a circle. Take a coin and hold it horizontally near eye level at a shallow sight angle. It will look oval.

If it still looks circular, meaning you can't get your brain to edit past the perspective angle, take a picture at that angle and trace the coin's outline in the 2D projection. It will be oval.

Spherical objects like a pinball don't do that because they present a circular cross-section when viewed from any angle in 3D.

Look at my screen capture for Portrait mode View 3 a few posts above.

The Shoot Again indicator appears to be longer from top to bottom, as if the perspective is from the side. I understand an oval shape, but we are centered over the flippers, and by proxy, the Shoot Again indicator directly between the flippers. The only way to make the circle appear the way it does in view 3 portrait mode is if the viewer were standing to the right or left of the table and looking at this indicator. No?

If the view is from behind, it should appear like the other dozens of circles shown on the table. The left and right sides are wider and the the circle appears to shrink if measured from top to bottom. The Shoot Again circular indicator is the only circle I see on this table that is longer measure top to bottom than from side to side.

It looks goofy and unnatural to me.

 

[superballs]

Ok let's sort this out once and for all:

My Method

I used Faststone Image Capture to take a screenshot near the flippers.

I then cropped it to a 57x57 image containing only the shoot again insert

I opened it in windows photo gallery and zoomed in, then took another pixel accurate screenshot of the zoomed in image.

That square represents a 57x57 pixel area (my monitor is 1680 x 1050).
The image is 732x732 actual.

It's a pretty perfect circle.

@ Crazy Newt - Chances are that your monitor does not have a 1:1 pixel ratio, meaning that they are longer than they are tall, even if slightly. When rotated sideways it will create the illusion that the circle is taller than it is wide.

Here's the image by the way

 

[Crazy Newt]

It is not wrong in all views, or with other tables I've played using the same view, just MM from the tables I have played in portrait mode. If this is my monitor, nothing else about the table behaves in this manner, just the Shoot Again indicator, and it is only severe in view 3 portrait mode. Just look at the screen shot above in portrait mode. Get a micrometer out and measure it compared to other circles on the table. It is the only object on the image that does not match the rest of the table. Every other circle is wider than it is taller, while the Shoot Again circle is the opposite.

I'll leave it alone, as we aren't making any progress in the discussion.

Edit: I notice the same odd behavior on my iPad (3rd gen) in portrait view mode (2 and 3 being the most noticeable) with MM.

 

[superballs]

I used view 3 locked.
Second. Why would you use a micrometer, to detect if it's a couple thousandths of an inch taller?

Count the pixels my screen shot is square...Same objects. It's something about your configuration.

Also, if you notice, the further back on the playfield you get, the more slanted back objects are, look at the entrances to the ramps vs the barriers of the return lanes or the flippers where you only see the top. This is what they called "layback" in vp forums.

End of day, I used the same view and took that screen shot. It's perfectly round. No more progress needed. Case closed.

 

[JavaJack]

nearly. 45 degree angle up and dewn for other parts of the same object.

They ought to offer some view modes that use CreateOrthographicOffCenter/glOrtho, particularly for portrait.

 

[Crazy Newt]

I used view 3 locked.
Second. Why would you use a micrometer, to detect if it's a couple thousandths of an inch taller?

Count the pixels my screen shot is square...Same objects. It's something about your configuration.

Also, if you notice, the further back on the playfield you get, the more slanted back objects are, look at the entrances to the ramps vs the barriers of the return lanes or the flippers where you only see the top. This is what they called "layback" in vp forums.

End of day, I used the same view and took that screen shot. It's perfectly round. No more progress needed. Case closed.

FYI, after doing some further research on this I have discovered that the issue does not appear when using any 16:10 resolution, such as 1680x1050 or 1920x1200, but it does not look right with a 16:9 monitor in portrait mode, such as 1920x1080 (in portrait 1080x1920) that I use as my main gaming monitor.

We were clearly not looking at the same issue when you were using 1680x1050, as I can also reproduce a perfect circle using this resolution. Unless something changes in the future, it looks like I will need a 16:10 monitor to play in portrait mode with full screen support to avoid seeing anomalies with stretched objects.