PS3 (NA) Version 2.08 And 2.09 Feedback And Discussion

[brakel]

Oh say that's a good idea, I'll have to try that too.

On the 3D topic, it happens that FarSight just posted a tiny clarification in a Facebook reply regarding release scheduling:

https://www.facebook.com/pinballarc...?comment_id=6291523&offset=0&total_comments=8

That's basically what I posted from the show. Scott from FarSight told me that it was a work in progress and they were still working on it. He said that he didn't think they'd roll it out until the Space Shuttle pack update or the update after that.

 

[Jeff Strong]

PHoF was not a perfect product either. Before they started buying tables and emulating tables they would script tables based on hours of video of game play that they would take at the Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas. Some of those scripts were wildly incorrect. The tables were often much slower than their real counterparts, the physics were really floaty, you couldn't read anything on the play field and there was a terrible controller issue on the PS3 version that caused the flippers to flip wildly unless you plugged in the controllers. And they never patched any of those issues.

However, those games were great on all of the systems they were on because they were pinball! TPA is miles ahead of PHoF for the PS3 and if they can work out a way to patch the DLC on the PS3 it will get even better. They do need to work on consistency.

Changing my TV from its calibrated custom settings to the stock Cinema mode has made Genie very playable for me.

TPA is much better in terms of table accuracy and physics, but I think PHOF was a more polished product relative to its time, at least the non-PS3 versions.

 

[grashopper]

Speaking of 3D ... Wouldn't each table need to be updated to include it? Including the DLC tables? If they can patch in 3D, why can't they fix the bad DLC?

 

[smbhax]

The tables are already three dimensional. ; ) Just need game code to render them from two slightly different directions at once, kinda.

Which does make me wonder if the 3D will be a 30 fps vs 60 fps type of thing.

 

[Tabe]

They did have a flipper lag fix um I guess somewhere around three months ago that removed the delay at 720p and reduced it to just one frame at 1080p--not a complete fix but it did make a big difference.

I don't agree that it's fixed in 720p.

Plus they have steadily been improving the flipper physics--ball through the flippers has largely been corrected, for instance--and the per-table physics.

Yes, they've mostly fixed ball-through-flipper stuff but the overall flipper physics are still terrible. The way the ball interacts with the flippers, in terms of angles of shots, is simply wrong a lot of the time.

there was a terrible controller issue on the PS3 version that caused the flippers to flip wildly unless you plugged in the controllers.

I spent a ton of time on PHOF on the PS3 and never once ran into that issue. Odd.

 

[smbhax]

I don't agree that it's fixed in 720p.

Huh. I guess I should try comparing it with PHOF again, haven't done that in a while. But I don't miss late at 720 like I do at 1080. Oh and I guess there are still people who have lag on various display devices for whatever reason.

EDIT: Ah I have been back and forth between TPA and Zen recently though (still trying and failing to find anything fun in Zen), and didn't feel TPA (at 720) being any less responsive than Zen.

Yes, they've mostly fixed ball-through-flipper stuff but the overall flipper physics are still terrible. The way the ball interacts with the flippers, in terms of angles of shots, is simply wrong a lot of the time.

I think I saw you mention that before but I can't say I understand what you mean. Is the ball rebounding at an angle you don't expect? Or coming off the flipper at an angle you don't expect? I dunno, I just don't experience this; my aiming between a real table and TPA feels pretty consistent. I suppose flipper lag could cause this feeling.

I spent a ton of time on PHOF on the PS3 and never once ran into that issue. Odd.

Oh I got that crazy flipper thing all the time, it was really wacky.

 

[grashopper]

I got the turbo flip flippers a lot too. Drove me crazy.

 

[shutyertrap]

Speaking of 3D ... Wouldn't each table need to be updated to include it? Including the DLC tables? If they can patch in 3D, why can't they fix the bad DLC?

The difference is adding 3D is what they'd call a 'global patch', meaning it is game wide. That kind of patch is easy to do. It's like adding the fix for flipper pass through or changing the menu. It's when they want to make a change to one table that you essentially have to download the entire table all over again through the game update. That is why they like to wait until they have a couple of patches for a table before doing anything. When MM had it's dragon ramp fixed, that wasn't the only patch made to it. If they put out a patch everytime they fixed something, the game would become massive in size eventually, with table sizes being 4,5,6 times the size they needed to be, just because that was how many patches were done.

 

[Mark W**a]

If 3D mode is 30 FPS then Farsight has wasted their and everyone elses time with this.

 

[ParallaxScroll]

Yeah, I guess I was talking more about the 360 version of PHOF. I also got the turbo flipper issue on PS3.

 

[brakel]

I don't agree that it's fixed in 720p.


Yes, they've mostly fixed ball-through-flipper stuff but the overall flipper physics are still terrible. The way the ball interacts with the flippers, in terms of angles of shots, is simply wrong a lot of the time.


I spent a ton of time on PHOF on the PS3 and never once ran into that issue. Odd.

I didn't add in all of the detail...it only happened for me when playing with more than one person.

 

[brakel]

TPA is much better in terms of table accuracy and physics, but I think PHOF was a more polished product relative to its time, at least the non-PS3 versions.

I think that's true of most disc based games that were published before they could be fixed with a patch. Even with the PS3 PHoF they never intended to add content or patch it so they needed to get it right on the disc. It is the era that we live in today. I can't tell you the last AAA disc based game that I played that didn't have a patch for it on day one of release.

It is a double edged sword. Games can be fixed after they are published. It was a game changer. But that also meant the devs could finalize a game with major bugs so they could meet their publishing deadline knowing that they can patch it later. Not long after the software patches came hardware that had patchable firmware. My wife bought a new HDMI AV receiver for me for my birthday in December. The model came out last spring. It was on its 4th firmware update to address multiple HDMI handshaking and switching problems. Mine locked up with a switching problem on the 5th day that I had it. I returned it and bought a different brand.

Ok, I'll put the old man grumble butt away now...

 

[smbhax]

It is a double edged sword. Games can be fixed after they are published. It was a game changer. But that also meant the devs could finalize a game with major bugs so they could meet their publishing deadline knowing that they can patch it later. Not long after the software patches came hardware that had patchable firmware. My wife bought a new HDMI AV receiver for me for my birthday in December. The model came out last spring. It was on its 4th firmware update to address multiple HDMI handshaking and switching problems. Mine locked up with a switching problem on the 5th day that I had it. I returned it and bought a different brand.

Yeah, the problem with it in TPA is that they made it like a patchable game but only later realized the PSN update system, coupled with the way they designed it I guess, would make it extremely awkward to patch. : P

 

[brakel]

If 3D mode is 30 FPS then Farsight has wasted their and everyone elses time with this.

It looks good. There was no noticeable flickering or anything. I think the way 3D works on the PS3 (perhaps on any machine) is that you will see 30 fps in one eye and 30 fps in the other eye and in your brain you will experience 60 fps. I'm sure there are people that can see a difference but when I played AFM in 3D I couldn't perceive a difference. Whenever you are watching 3D each individual eye is only seeing the screen for half the time. But I think I might be confusing the refresh rate and the FPS. The 3D effect has to be related to the refresh rate, right? So it would be independent of the FPS? So then strike what I just said because I don't know what I'm talking about.

But when I played TPA in 3D it looked cool, ok?

 

[smbhax]

If they put out a patch everytime they fixed something, the game would become massive in size eventually, with table sizes being 4,5,6 times the size they needed to be, just because that was how many patches were done.

I don't know about that, I think it would only ever be 2x the size--you'd just need each patched table in the game update file once; later patches to the same table would replace that same chunk of the patch file size, more or less. Still, if say we get up to like 40 tables and each is ~40 MB, that's a 1600 MB game update for everyone to download every month or so.

I mean heck that wouldn't bother me, I download several demos of that size on average per week. Maybe Sony frowns on regular game updates of that size? I dunno, personally I think they should go for it!

 

[smbhax]

I think the way 3D works on the PS3 (perhaps on any machine) is that you will see 30 fps in one eye and 30 fps in the other eye and in your brain you will experience 60 fps. I'm sure there are people that can see a difference but when I played AFM in 3D I couldn't perceive a difference. Whenever you are watching 3D each individual eye is only seeing the screen for half the time.

Oh yeah, I guess that makes sense. Apparently it can depend on your TV--some use polarized glasses, which admit light to both eyes at once, rather than shutter glasses, for instance--but it sounds like most of the newer ones are alternating shutter systems like that. I've read about *some* PS3 games only doing 3D at reduced fps (and even reduced screen resolution!) but I guess that's due to the individual game not being able to handle the additional processing for whatever reason.

 

[grashopper]

I don't know about that, I think it would only ever be 2x the size--you'd just need each patched table in the game update file once; later patches to the same table would replace that same chunk of the patch file size, more or less. Still, if say we get up to like 40 tables and each is ~40 MB, that's a 1600 MB game update for everyone to download every month or so.

I mean heck that wouldn't bother me, I download several demos of that size on average per week. Maybe Sony frowns on regular game updates of that size? I dunno, personally I think they should go for it!

I think it's insane that size would hold them back if it's the only issue. I think anyone would take a patch that takes a bit longer each month if it actually fixed some of the mess they made.
I think the combination of the accuracy promises they made with no table demos should force them into fixing this crap. We only have the videos to go by and none of them represent the product PS3 owners end up with. Think that's a bit of false advertisement.

 

[Lord Boron]

Remember, not everyone has high speed Internet. I'm stuck on DSL and the last update took about 35 min to download. I can deal with that, but I can see where it would start to get annoying if it takes over an hour to download each update.

 

[shutyertrap]

My DSL is only at 1mbps download, so updates take a while for me too. So if I was having to download a new version every week for one patch fix, it'd start to get annoying. I would be fine with a once a month download though.

 

[grashopper]

My DSL is only at 1mbps download, so updates take a while for me too. So if I was having to download a new version every week for one patch fix, it'd start to get annoying. I would be fine with a once a month download though.

Once a month if we are lucky...
I still don't get why they can't do the patches like every other game. Why does it all have to be in one update? Why can't they patch like pain or Gt5 LBP? Not everything is in one patch.