Quality Assurance

[shutyertrap]

I certainly do not want FarSight to slow down on the table releases. I think it is a great schedule that keeps us interested in playing the game. I would like them to hire more people. Specifically, I'd like them to hire people that can optimize the game for specific platforms. I don't even know if optimize is the right word, as now that I've seen the Vita screens, I think that needs a top down different approach. Having people who are specifically aware of each platforms quirks would, I believe, cut down the number of bugs that later pop up.

They really are a talented bunch of guys up there. I can't stress that enough. They also are all very passionate about pinball. It bugs me when I hear people throwing around "FS is being greedy". I visited their studio. There's nothing excessive, nothing lavish about it. The parking lot wasn't filled with high end cars. Every person working there has multiple jobs on top of their actual job title. That's why I say they need more bodies.

As for forcing people to now buy 2 tables instead of one...boo hoo. Been that way since day one on consoles. There's been a few times where the table I thought I'd wanted turned out to be the lesser of the 2. My gut tells me the sudden switch for you guys on mobiles though is tying into tournament plans. The more tables they know you have, the more players that can enter.

 

[Bass Mummy]

This thread took a bit of an odd turn, didn't it?

Back on topic, I'm sure that Farsight is fully aware that if the tables aren't bundled, the less popular table will sell considerably less. Not as many people would buy Genie as AFM. In order to shore up expected income, Farsight requires you to buy both. It may not be the best business practice, but I don't think there's much to be done about it on our end short of simply refusing to buy, if that's what you decide to do.

 

[Gord Lacey]

Deleted a number of posts in this thread. WTF is wrong with some of you guys?

 

[night]

I'm sure that Farsight is fully aware that if the tables aren't bundled, the less popular table will sell considerably less. Not as many people would buy Genie as AFM. In order to shore up expected income, Farsight requires you to buy both.

Question, what do you prefer: 1 great table each month and time left for FarSight to can get their act together, or 2 tables a month, 1 'decent' one and 1 so-so quality? I would love to pay €4,49 for 1 killer table, without bugs and slick graphics rather than 2 rush jobs. There is nothing I detest more than mediocrity.

 

[Bass Mummy]

Question, what do you prefer: 1 great table each month and time left for FarSight to can get their act together, or 2 tables a month, 1 'decent' one and 1 so-so quality? I would love to pay €4,49 for 1 killer table, without bugs and slick graphics rather than 2 rush jobs. There is nothing I detest more than mediocrity.

Obviously, I'd like them to all be completely polished and perfect. As I've stated in other threads, I have a very sharp eye for detail, so the smallest defects can really bug me.

On the other hand, the question you pose is actually a really tough one for me if it were to mean never getting those tables. I've really fallen in love with some of the "B sides."

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

1 good table polished than 2 so so for the same price. Whats wrong with US!? What you dont like pink gord?

 

[Sumez]

Aw looks like I missed some drama

I'm really curious to know what "the third thing" was.

 

[MWink]

I have to disagree with the comment that corporations can't be greedy. Corporations are run by people who experience emotions. I understand their purpose is to make money but I feel there's a difference between offering a good product for a reasonable price and offering the bare minimum people will tolerate for the highest price they are willing to pay. I feel this is becoming more of a problem these days, particularly in some industries (*cough*cell phones*cough*).

Someone else pointed out their studio is not lavish and their parking lot is not filled with expensive cars. This does not necessarily disprove my point. Most companies I would consider "greedy" do not treat their employees well either. They try to squeeze out the most work while offering minimum pay. Most of the money tends to go to the corporation, share holders, or executives. It tends to be the customers and majority of the employees that get the shaft. A good example of what I'm trying to describe is Apple. They pay Chinese workers pennies to build an iProduct that they sell for hundreds to thousands of dollars.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying FarSight is a greedy company. I just feel that recent changes have given me some cause for concern. I did not know they only sold packs to console gamers as the only console version I've played is PHOF Williams Collection on Wii (which has no DLC). I still don't see any advantage to the customer by forcing them to buy them in packs. Someone mentioned tournament play but I don't know anything about that. I just know that I want to buy and play individual tables.

You also have to realize that while these tables/packs are not exactly expensive, they're not exactly cheap either. The economy is not in great shape and many of us have very small entertainment budgets. These are not real pinball machines, they are video games (albeit good ones). If you want to compare prices, I can get the paid versions of all the angry birds games for the same price as one TPA table pack. That's how a lot of average people (not pinball enthusiasts) are going to think when they look at TPA.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I come off too negative. I really don't wish to be. I really like TPA and FarSight, there are just some little issues with them and I admit, I'm a picky person. And to get back to the original issue, I would prefer 1 polished table over 2 mediocre tables.

 

[sixmillion]

On the consoles, it's always been both tables in a pack or nothing. Such is life. Considering it costs me $15 for 6 hours of real pinball (which is a good deal), I have a hard time understanding people getting worked up about $5 for unlimited play of two tables, even on principle.

No such is not life, they did offer the consumer the option to buy single tables and now they have changed their tune. I think you missed my point. I don't like being forced to buy a product I don't like to get something I want, no matter the cost, this is just bad business.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

No such is not life, they did offer the consumer the option to buy single tables and now they have changed their tune. I think you missed my point. I don't like being forced to buy a product I don't like to get something I want, no matter the cost, this is just bad business.

The consoles have never had single tables, except Twilight Zone on the PS3, which is not really the same kind of beast.

And I understand your point about not wanting to buy the second table in a pack just fine; what I don't understand is why this is worth taking a stand over. The second table in a pack is either $1 or $2 after accounting for the $1 discount FarSight offers on most packs. It's not worth the rise in blood pressure being aggravated by it. Just pay the extra buck or two and ignore the second table if you choose.

Also, I've found that many of the "lesser" tables that I would have ignored had I had the option have grown on me over time. I now play almost as much Genie as I do AFM, for example.

 

[Tony C]

Whatever. DILDO

The reference to "B-sides" is perfect. We've been paying for things we didn't know we wanted for years.

Some consistency from table to table shouldn't be that much to expect by now. I thought that was one of the big hurdles, getting the framework set up. Once that was done, things were supposed to get easy for the guys at FS. After the second or third round of DLC, you'd think that a big miss like Dr Dude's lower playfield would be virtually impossible to get through beta.

 

[George Klepacz]

I can say that I didn't like Firepower when I first started playing it on PHOF:WC, but now it's in my Top 3. If TPA was my first exposure, I wouldn't want to have purchased it based on judging a book by it's cover. I would have skipped Genie in TPA because of the sounds it makes, but after a few games, I really like it. So, IMO, I like the 2 pack business model because it exposes me to tables I wouldn't have enjoyed otherwise.

But, on topic, they need to have the bugs cleaned up.

 

[netizen]

If I hadn't purchased the individual tables, when they were offered, for the ones I hadn't played before, I would never have found my love for EMs and early model SS machines. I find that I play more Big Shot, Genie, Gorgar, etc than most other tables.

If I could even find an arcade that had these tables I would have easily spent more than the $5 that each table pack they came in cost me.

Considering the overall mission of TPA to recreate, for posterity, pinball tables to try and get them preserved we should try and understand that there will be tables that one person loves, and another hates, but if we as a community stop supporting the overall concept of this mission we may find that the selection and availability of tables begins to decrease which could become a larger problem in the future.

Personally I would rather buy a pack of two tables I am not too fond of knowing that Far Sight will be able to continue and eventually release some obscure table I have never had the opportunity to play IRL then get all finicky now, holding out for just my favourites.

 

[superballs]

I can understand some of the quality control issues.
Personally, I'm not so hardcore pinball that I even realize a lot of the issues on tables. Ball going through a wall or stuck camera? Sure I'm going to notice these, but i'm not that good at most of the tables to actually get these so I'm usually one of the last to notice.

As for the table pack issue. I can't really say that I care because I've never bought a single table ever. For iOS i bought everything in packs up to Scared Stiff. XBOX, everything in packs because that's just the way it is. Android? Everything in packs except for 5 Tables (newest ones CV/FH because i'm not really compelled to buy them and STTNG although i should be caught up in a couple weeks).

Now this isn't to say that i don't kinda feel for you guys who have such opposition to it, however, by buying BS/SS pack, I ended up playing Big Shot almost exclusively even though I was waiting for SS, for example. It really has the potential to be a good thing...and, when you're bored stiff of the featured table, you'll likely find some enjoyment in just having something different to do (how i got to like RBION).

Honestly, besides using your wallet, since a lack of sales will only say there is a problem, send an email. I don't mean a mindless, wall-of-text rant people. Fill in the Subject line, make it short, concise and to the point (this is going to be very important). In the body, simply make your point, politely and clearly.

If FS has a whole lot of emails in their inbox saying:

[TABLENAME] - Art issue - will not purchase until fixed

And a body that details the issue. Then they might realize that fixing the issue will fix the problem of no sales.
Sure, you can say that you are only one person and you can't be sure that anyone else will do this, but at least if you do, then you've done your part.

I know that they read this forum also, threads might created using the same subject and the more replies it gets, the more lost sales seen by Farsight. However, even if we cry bloody murder and the table is selling like hotcakes (how do you let someone know if you're hotcakes are selling well?), then best of luck getting it fixed in a timely manner anyway.

I must say though...i was shocked to see the Vita version...that's atrocious, though I would have almost put that between N64 and Dreamcast running on NTSC (DC on VGA would have been sweet looking).

I think the thing that really bums me out the most is the statement that older tables will not be getting upgraded physics tweaks and whatnot, that really disappoints me. I know i come across as quite the FS apologist sometimes and really I am, I'm much more patient with FS than I am with pretty well every other company I've ever dealt with, more because I fully support what they are trying to do. Sometimes I don't really agree with how they do it but I've never NOT gotten 5-7$ worth of enjoyment out of a table pack. I've never regretted paying (usually multiple times) for any DLC. I get less enjoyment out of a burger and onion rings at A&W (23$ for two people can you believe that for fast food?) than i do a single table pack from TPA. I'm not trying to throw the "less than a ..." argument out there, I'm just saying that I feel that I'm getting my money's worth when I pick up a package.

I would be 100% in favour of the product I've already purchased to be improved, but let's face it, have you ever bought an item and wished it was better at what it did (even though it served it's function) and had it be improved after purchase? I'm talking toasters, blenders, etc, real physical items here, not software. Of course not. The fact that many tables have been improved, even at a slow rate is something we should all be somewhat thankful for. MM has gotten a ton better since release, Black Hole...holy crap has it been improved, I can't wait for the XBOX update for that.

As much as I hate to say it. If you don't like what they are giving you, don't buy it. You can play the tables for free and that will give you at least some insight as to the art, graphical, physics and play quality, to be honest, I wish that newly downloaded tables would be fully playable for a day or two (or even a couple hours) just so that you can see if the table is worth buying instead of up to the first high score.

 

[MadScience2006]

I can understand some of the quality control issues.(snip of a great post)

Agreed 100%...I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[SlamCitySkates]

My gaming style has changed recently and I really do think now is the time for FS to invest in some QA. Previously I would play one table a lot at the expense of the other tables, but now Im jumping from table to table and it really is obvious that TPA has bug and consistency issues. With a relative glut of tables coming out, the cumulative number of bugs and other annoyances is really beginning to stack up and it is reflecting badly on FS. I can say hand on heart, without meaning to troll, that i consider FS to be the worst software programmers on the PS3, or if they arent, they are giving the impression they are, and this cant be good news. I certainly download DLC with less enthusiasm than I did.

I wouldnt want FS to become a small business who think they are bomb proof because they have an audience they consider to be captive. The truth is they arent bomb proof - anything can change. The quality of other gaming Apps on Android / iOS could suddenly get better, or they may fall out with a publisher, or SCEE QA may turn on them or, we, the customer, may turn to another pinball publisher, or go off pinball games altogether. The only way to protect themselves is to associate themselves with a quality product - and, certainly, on the PS3, their product isnt quality atm.

Ive noticed a lot of things in the last month or so from jumping from table to table which can broadly be categorised in three ways.
1. Long standing issues - Some still there from Day one. The leaderboards still dont work. If we go back to WPHOF - they didnt work there either - so this is an issue theyve had for many years. On one table, the offline Top 5 didnt work properly (the table was Funhouse) and you still cant add your initials if more than one person gets a Top 5 score in the same multiplayer game. I mean, really? That cant be fixed? Whether leaderboards are important to you or not, it is such a basic feature that it just reflects badly on FS. They either dont know how to fix it, or arent listening to their customers - either way, I cant think of a single other software house that has this problem. I also have a 'Tournament' button that doesnt do anything except link to a message that tells me the button doesnt do anything. How many tables do I need before it activates? In truth it could have worked with the original four tables. Again, it reflects badly.

2. Consistency - Or lack of it. If you go back to the original four tables, plus MM and Gorgar - these tables are amazingly beautiful. (Except, maybe RBION). Compare that to the recent TZ and, oh boy, does TZ look amateurish (I also think NGG and CFTBL are ugly tables as well). This, I find quite stunning, as TZ is the most anticipated table, was paid for upfront by its customers, and was released on its own at a premium price. It should look as amazing as the originals for these reasons. Couple this with the fact that I experienced a bug with it before I even plunged a ball onto the playfield (Player One suddenly becoming Player Two), and you have a glaring example of standards slipping at FS. I know FS should make hay whilst the sun is shining, but when the sun stops shining, it is this sort of thing the customer remembers.

3. Table specific bugs - There are lots of them now - I dont think it would stretch any of our imaginations if we were asked to list ten of them, for instance. Again there is inconsistency here. FunHouse is an absolute dog of a table - the amount of bugs on that table is unreal. Whereas I would struggle to name a bug on Monster Bash, for example. What this adds up to is when you are hovering over the download button is that you just dont know what you are getting, and the more examples you can think of, the less confidence you have in the DLC. Lose that confidence and you might not pay for the DLC.

Im sorry, I dont buy that FS has more problems because they are 'small'. Their product is small as well - there is simply less code to QA. They have just released Scared Stiff and TZ and, as a pinhead, I should be in heaven with that - but, in truth Ive become a bit Meh with it. And that is mainly because theyve been produced by FS - I have low expectations of them in terms of quality, and they often meet those expectations. I want to be excited by these tables.

 

[night]

One of the best looking tables are FunHouse, TOTAN, TOM, BOP and another one I forgot. They are made with care and love. All the newer tables lack love. When I first installed TPA we had just a couple of tables and they looked promising. Such a great idea to bring all these old school tables back to life. With the '2 tables a month' policy things went downhill quickly. Such a shame for such a great product and idea. Almost every new table look as 75% finished. They all need a good update and things will become so much better. I really believe they should skip the 2 tables a month, slow down, charge €4,95 for a good table, perhaps a surprise b-side from time to time, for €2, why not? But start focussing on quality instead of production. It's almost there..

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

I never had a 10 but I often get two 5's
Good Enough is the enemy of GREATNESS

 

[DopedToInfinity]

I think I read that the physical tables don't get refurbished, but the refurbishment happens digitally. If so, then why didn't this happen to Dr Dude? Look at the kinetic clinic thing over the plunger lane....

 

[pezpunk]

wow, those vita screenshots are pretty damning. i didn't know it was that bad.

on iOS, the tables all look pretty good. there are stuttering issues related to performance on ipad2 and mini with ios 6.x, but it's not totally horrendous.

the thing that both baffles and bothers me is the camera zooming issues that have been happening since the initial release and, incredibly, STILL pop up on brand new tables such as dr. dude. it is insane to me that they are still having problems with this. we have been annoyed by game-ending bugs related to the camera zooming in on a toy or getting stuck on or away from the plunger since day one. how is this not the first thing thoroughly tested on new tables?? how is this STILL slipping by on new releases? how have both the coders and the testers failed in virtually the same way so many times over?

i mean i love this game and appreciate the undertaking farsight is engaging in. i don't get frustrated by mistakes slipping through ... but when it's the same mistake over and over ... there is a problem.