Questions Answered - FarSight

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Zevious Zoquis

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Jul 27, 2013
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Remastering and building new physics models is what is generally referred to in the industry as a "sequel". Lol. I honestly can't even begin to comprehend why some people think a dev should have to go back and rebuild product that was released and has been working for years and not be paid for that. Bug fixes? Obviously no charge. But updating old assets to modern standards for free? Sorry, but there's no reason that should be an expectation. Especially given that we're talking about a niche product here.

In the end though I fear this is just an intellectual debate...I don't hold much hope that we're going to see a lot of work being done on the first few season's tables anytime soon - free or not.
 
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vikingerik

Active member
Nov 6, 2013
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Zevious Zoquis said:
But updating old assets to modern standards for free? Sorry, but there's no reason that should be an expectation.
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People get hung up on this because of Farsight's stated mission to preserve the history of pinball. If a machine exists in digital form as a poor rendition that could be done better, that means both that Farsight isn't adhering to that mission as much as they could be, and that that table probably won't ever see a better rendition since it's already been finished and sold. Farsight's earlier cruder efforts deprive us of the chance to have it done right.

If Farsight would say or we would accept that preservation isn't really the priority, this concern disappears, and we know to look to the likes of Visual Pinball authors that do it as a labor of love and pride.
 
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Zevious Zoquis

New member
Jul 27, 2013
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vikingerik said:
People get hung up on this because of Farsight's stated mission to preserve the history of pinball. If a machine exists in digital form as a poor rendition that could be done better, that means both that Farsight isn't adhering to that mission as much as they could be, and that that table probably won't ever see a better rendition since it's already been finished and sold. Farsight's earlier cruder efforts deprive us of the chance to have it done right.

If Farsight would say or we would accept that preservation isn't really the priority, this concern disappears, and we know to look to the likes of Visual Pinball authors that do it as a labor of love and pride.
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Sorry, I don't get your point. How does FS's goal of preserving the history of pinball in any way lock them in to having to constantly upgrade the previously released tables to better and better versions for free? I have a copy of WPHOF on my shelf across the room there that has an earlier version of several tables in TPA...why the heck did I have to pay again for more modern versions of those same tables? Because the new versions are NEW builds in a new version of the game. The tables from the first few seasons of TPA all more or less work fine and look fine (with a few exceptions that would really fall under the "bugs" category of issues). I played Gorgar for an hour last night - it's a great looking table still and it plays quite well. It's not perfect but there's nothing about it that renders it unusable. The machines will always exist in digital form as a "poor rendition" of reality - or at least they will for some time to come. That doesn't mean FS has to give us free improved versions until they are perfect...

And as far as FS's earlier cruder versions depriving us of any chance to have them done right, I doubt it. Believe me, nobody is going to be preserving the history of pinball in digital form for free and stay in business very long...
 
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Ecktown

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Jul 15, 2016
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Thank you very much for the answers, Mike! I really appreciate this and think that it would be a great thing to do from time to time.
 
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vikingerik

Active member
Nov 6, 2013
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Zevious Zoquis said:
Sorry, I don't get your point. How does FS's goal of preserving the history of pinball in any way lock them in to having to constantly upgrade the previously released tables to better and better versions for free?
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It doesn't. But people create that expectation for themselves anyway, and that's why they get mad at Farsight over it.
 
Spork98765

Spork98765

Member
Jul 3, 2015
363
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vikingerik said:
It doesn't. But people create that expectation for themselves anyway, and that's why they get mad at Farsight over it.
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Once Upon A Time ...

when you could buy tables from packs individually, when packs had 2 tables, people were "Happy". Then FarSight created this problem being discussed sometime around Season 3 by saying packs had to bought "as is", while saying the PHOF tables would be included at the pack price for "Free". They mentioned the PHOF tables were remastered and didn't need as much work as the new ones, so were cheaper and could be included this way. This marketing speak has set the precedent for the expectation of this behaviour to be the norm within the apps lifespan.

The End
 
shutyertrap

shutyertrap

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Staff member
Mar 14, 2012
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Look, The Pinball Arcade is a different program from Pinball Hall of Fame. It has a different engine, it has a different business model, it is a front end that continually gets DLC added. It is not Madden or NBA 2K with different versions popping up each year with new roster stats. I say it over and over, but TPA is more like Rock Band than any other program. You know what Rock Band did when it came back for next gen consoles? All previously bought DLC transferred over despite now having new game functionality added in. Why? Because after surveying their customer base before release, Harmonix discovered that people were more likely to hold onto last gen version than upgrade if it meant repurchasing their massive music library. That was problematic to Harmonix if they wanted Rock Band 4 to have a chance at success. So music transferred, new instruments were not required, and their customer base which had become niche was very happy. That leads to new sales of new music DLC, plus sales of new plastic instruments since many had been tossed years prior.
 
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Zevious Zoquis

New member
Jul 27, 2013
254
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shutyertrap said:
Look, The Pinball Arcade is a different program from Pinball Hall of Fame. It has a different engine, it has a different business model, it is a front end that continually gets DLC added. It is not Madden or NBA 2K with different versions popping up each year with new roster stats. I say it over and over, but TPA is more like Rock Band than any other program. You know what Rock Band did when it came back for next gen consoles? All previously bought DLC transferred over despite now having new game functionality added in. Why? Because after surveying their customer base before release, Harmonix discovered that people were more likely to hold onto last gen version than upgrade if it meant repurchasing their massive music library. That was problematic to Harmonix if they wanted Rock Band 4 to have a chance at success. So music transferred, new instruments were not required, and their customer base which had become niche was very happy. That leads to new sales of new music DLC, plus sales of new plastic instruments since many had been tossed years prior.
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Yeah, but the new version of the game wasn't free was it? I mean what's the difference between that and FS charging (a considerably smaller amount) for an update that brings the older assets up to current standards? It's easy for the Rockband dev to allow old dlc to stay in the game when they can charge $79 for the new game up front. That generates the $ they need to pay people. What chance at success would Harmonix have had if they gave Rockband 4 away for nothing? Not only that, but it's certainly not standard operating procedure for dlc to carry over from older versions of games to newer ones either...

I think it's important to remember that the market for TPA is probably pretty much maxed out. I doubt there's many more people out there who are going to jump on board at this point - and we all have those old tables already so updating them for free isn't likely to generate much in the way of new sales at all. I estimate there's almost nobody who would look at TPA and see that FS had released a nice update that made the old tables prettier and decide "hey that's cool, I'm buying TPA and a bunch of tables."
 
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shutyertrap

shutyertrap

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Mar 14, 2012
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Zevious Zoquis said:
Yeah, but the new version of the game wasn't free was it? I mean what's the difference between that and FS charging (a considerably smaller amount) for an update that brings the older assets up to current standards? It's easy for the Rockband dev to allow old dlc to stay in the game when they can charge $79 for the new game up front. That generates the $ they need to pay people. What chance at success would Harmonix have had if they gave Rockband 4 away for nothing? Not only that, but it's certainly not standard operating procedure for dlc to carry over from older versions of games to newer ones either...

I think it's important to remember that the market for TPA is probably pretty much maxed out. I doubt there's many more people out there who are going to jump on board at this point - and we all have those old tables already so updating them for free isn't likely to generate much in the way of new sales at all. I estimate there's almost nobody who would look at TPA and see that FS had released a nice update that made the old tables prettier and decide "hey that's cool, I'm buying TPA and a bunch of tables."
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No, the new disc was not free. It did have a whole mess of new music on it though as well as a completely new interface and game modes. Also, it was for a new console generation after not having a new game in over 3 years. In other words using this example, FarSight would introduce TPA 2.0 with a season's worth of tables, new UI, no bugs, new gameplay like head 2 head, and have it all work flawlessly. Oh, and all your old DLC? It not only works with this new game, but takes advantage of all the new improvements and plays just like the new stuff in one cohesive manner!

If FarSight were to remaster and charge once more with the current game setup, what happens to all those who don't upgrade? Because certainly you can't expect FarSight to maintain now 2 versions of the tables can you? As it is now, they release a new table and something goes wrong on 2 old ones. They'd only want to fix the latest version, but 90% of their user base isn't going to upgrade. And I'm being generous with that number.

Ultimately the question I asked initially thought is, why are you so eager to pay more for this? You don't know FarSight's finances, so quit assuming they need extra help. They are a business, let them figure it themselves to see what they can make work and what they can't.
 
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Zevious Zoquis

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Jul 27, 2013
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Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love to have everything fixed up and looking great for free. I just think we're going to be waiting forever for it that way - as in it won't be happening. I'm afraid that's where we're at at this point.
 
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Zevious Zoquis

New member
Jul 27, 2013
254
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shutyertrap said:
Ultimately the question I asked initially thought is, why are you so eager to pay more for this? You don't know FarSight's finances, so quit assuming they need extra help. They are a business, let them figure it themselves to see what they can make work and what they can't.
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yeah, since it's been working so great to this point...
 
shutyertrap

shutyertrap

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Mar 14, 2012
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Heretic said:
what would eliot do?!?

*nods*
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