Real Life Pinball Comparisons

[Stormchild]

That's the other difference between TPA and real tables - if something works in TPA, it almost always works all the time. For example, in Arabian Nights, you can hold the right flipper up and the eject from the Bazaar scoop will land in a perfect trap (after some bouncing) every time. On the real TotAN near me, that is by no means guaranteed - sometimes it works, sometimes the right sling brushes it and fires it off into the left outlane.

This is a really important point. The Funhouse kick-up always gives me the exact same bounce pass off the right flipper to the left, which is really useful, but surely not something you could rely on when playing the real table.

The most complicated "pretty much always works" trick I've found on any of the tables so far is the kick-out on Monster Bash. As long as the table isn't nudged, and you don't touch the flippers, about 95% of the time you can be sure the ball will bounce off the left flipper, then do a light, slow bounce off the right slingshot, get fired by the left slingshot, bounce off the right wall, then the left wall (where the curve starts), hit the blue trigger, and then descend toward the left flipper. I use this over and over, but surely this entire sequence of actions wouldn't occur exactly the same way almost every single time on a real table. And when it *doesn't* occur, there's only one other possible outcome, which is easily manageable.

I don't think it should be randomized or anything like that, but there are obviously some subtle details not accounted for in the physics engine (yet?).

 

[Stormchild]

Flippers on pinball machines are electro-mechanical beasties.
The buttons are either ON or OFF... there is no variable strength depending on how hard you press the buttons.

HOWEVER, the actual mechanical motion of them is controlled by an electro-magnetic solenoid coil.
Press and hold the button... the solenoid activates and the flipper moves to the "up" position.
It takes a certain length of time for this to happen.

If you QUICKLY press and release the buttons, the solenoid might not make the complete stroke of movement before the power is cut off again.
This is how on a real machine you can control the "strength" of the flip.

The speed in which a real machine's flippers respond to the power being on and off will vary considerably from machine to machine, with wear and tear and physical adjustments being made to the mechanisms. Some flippers will respond fast and strong, while others will be so weak as to hardly propel the ball up the table.

Really interesting stuff, thanks. Flipper response improvements are at the top of my wish list for Pinball Arcade.

 

[SilverBalls]

It's more a matter of timing than force (except on machines like Whirlwind with two-stage upper flippers), and this is TPA's chief area needing improvement. There are little flick passes and other nuances you can do with the flippers by quickly releasing and repressing the button, and thereby not allowing the flippers to travel all the way down and back up again. In TPA, even the slightest release and repress of the flipper controls will cause the flipper to travel its full distance, thereby launching the ball into the stratosphere. On a real machine, you wouldn't get that.

With regards to the flippers taps (where the flipper isn't moving all the way back down), this has been done in Visual Pinball (VP), and it shouldn't be difficult to implement.

A member on vpForums 'jimmyfingers' came up with several tricks including the momentum mod and these flipper taps. Here is what he says:
"This table has some other MODs / routines including soft flipper taps; These are possible when you are holding the flipper already up and very quickly release and press the button again (flipper passes are possible)"

The Fullscreen Mata Hari showing these tricks is here:
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=19541&st=0

and the desktop is here:
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?automodule=downloads&req=idx&cmd=viewdetail&f_id=6539

 

[mmmagnetic]

I think it´s really a matter of perspective, how to approach this game.

Is it supposed to be a simulation, or a videogame? That might sound like a purely semantic argument, but I´ve experienced this in the racing sim genre, where quite a lot of people payed attention to every single element that wasn´t true to real life, discussing endlessly about the feedback from the road coming to their expensive force feedback steering wheels. Meanwhile, I was more than happy to play Richard Burns Rally with a cheap Logitech pad, which of course was quite far removed from driving an actual rally car. But I had a ton of fun and honestly didn´t mind so much that it wasn´t 100% authentic, as long as I had an enjoyable experience.

When I play TPA on my iPad or even PHOF on my 3DS, I treat it like a videogame (which is the only way to really enjoy PHOF 3DS, to be honest) - I pretty much stop comparing it to the real machine andmy scores and the challenge the table presents me as a separate thing from the real pinball. For instance, take MM. It still has the big gap between the flippers, but after a while I started appreciating the additional challenge, and it influenced the way I play the game (meaning I never go for the castles directly, but wait until I trigger a multiball mode). I also don´t think about comparing my TPA scores to the ones made on a real machine. It is true, however, that the gap wasn´t intended by the designers, and the intention of the designer is a very important thing to respect in my opinion.

So to me, TPA is a videogame in and of itself, rather than a way to simulate a real table, and that means that I exploit each and every quirk the game presents itself with, the "always the same" nature of certain shots for instance.

That´s not to say that I knock the noble goal of making everything as realistic as possible. I already can´t stand playing Zen Pinball anymore because it just bugs me that the ball feels like a lead weight in that game. And I will say that when the top pinball designers created their tables in a very specific way, every little deviation in physics or table layout can take away from the true intention of the table, the fine-tuned way it was designed.

I certainly would love TPA to become more and more realistic, but in the meantime I´m happy just having fun with it, even though some (or a lot) of things that work on a real machine can´t be replicated in game. That might be also because I rarely get to play a real pinball machine - I can certainly understand the frustration of people having access to the respective real machine, and seeing the TPA rendition behaving differently.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

I know that the Pro Pinball games had user-adjustable table-wear settings.

It'd probably be too confusing to actually do this in PA, but it'd be fun for each machine to come with a finite set of instances applying some particular combination of table wear, a malfunctioning switch or two, weaker-than-new flippers, etc. Of course one of them would always be maximally pristine.

 

[Supermans]

This is a really important point. The Funhouse kick-up always gives me the exact same bounce pass off the right flipper to the left, which is really useful, but surely not something you could rely on when playing the real table.

The most complicated "pretty much always works" trick I've found on any of the tables so far is the kick-out on Monster Bash. As long as the table isn't nudged, and you don't touch the flippers, about 95% of the time you can be sure the ball will bounce off the left flipper, then do a light, slow bounce off the right slingshot, get fired by the left slingshot, bounce off the right wall, then the left wall (where the curve starts), hit the blue trigger, and then descend toward the left flipper. I use this over and over, but surely this entire sequence of actions wouldn't occur exactly the same way almost every single time on a real table. And when it *doesn't* occur, there's only one other possible outcome, which is easily manageable.

I don't think it should be randomized or anything like that, but there are obviously some subtle details not accounted for in the physics engine (yet?).

It is obvious that in a real pinball machine, the kick-out mechanisms vary in how the ball is hit for various reasons. First of all, the ball may not be positioned exactly the same place when it is struck out as it is in PBA. Secondly, the mechanism hitting the ball may not always hit it perfectly center every time. However all the pinball machines would try to be perfect all the time but have wear and tear to deal with. I actually like the reliability that PBA offers and do not want some random modifier added. If PBA does create some random modifier, please allow us to shut it off so that the table high scores remain consistant as that will make the games a lot harder.

 

[Richard B]

I know that the Pro Pinball games had user-adjustable table-wear settings.

It'd probably be too confusing to actually do this in PA, but it'd be fun for each machine to come with a finite set of instances applying some particular combination of table wear, a malfunctioning switch or two, weaker-than-new flippers, etc. Of course one of them would always be maximally pristine.

Much like how auto manufacturers balked at having their in-game representations get destroyed, or even show damage, some licensees might not appreciate their games being depicted in awful condition. This feature would be cool, as older, neglected tables have different physics, such as slower ball speed, but I think I'd draw the line at malfunctioning flippers, switches, and other things that affect scoring. Playing a Medieval Madness where castle hits, aren't registered, trolls won't come up (or register hits), or the switches on other mandatory shots won't count (making Battle for the Kingdom impossible to achieve) would not be fun.

 

[Fuseball]

Even a brand new kicker on a pinball machine doesn't kick the ball out at an identical trajectory and velocity every time. Personally, I would like a little bit of random variance. Only a couple of degrees is all it would need. It's that subtle variation that makes pinball feel real and analogue.

If it's done right you will barely notice it, other than not being able to rely on identical bounces every time.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Yeah, I want the randomness of the kickers too. It can get a bit stale when you know exactly what the ball is going to do everytime.

 

[Fungi]

Heck, I want randomness on the slingshots. Specifically the tops. Everytime a ball just touches them, it means "oh, time to turn on the automatic head to the outlane" routine.

Grrrrrrr.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

\Playing a Medieval Madness where castle hits, aren't registered, trolls won't come up (or register hits), or the switches on other mandatory shots won't count (making Battle for the Kingdom impossible to achieve) would not be fun.

Oddly, I just read that Medieval Madness actually had an operator setting specifically to deal with the castle toy being broken. You could advance through the castle-destruction sequence just by hitting the drawbridge (which was easier than with a fully-functioning castle).

I wonder if it was inspired by the fact that so many Theatre of Magics are essentially unplayable due to broken Magic Trunk.

 

[Stormchild]

Even a brand new kicker on a pinball machine doesn't kick the ball out at an identical trajectory and velocity every time. Personally, I would like a little bit of random variance. Only a couple of degrees is all it would need. It's that subtle variation that makes pinball feel real and analogue.

If it's done right you will barely notice it, other than not being able to rely on identical bounces every time.

As long as the result is realistic, I think this could work. It's probably a more practical approach than trying to make the physics engine account for every possible variance in positioning, small amounts of kinetic energy that still remain in the ball when it's "parked" and about to be kicked, and whatever other factors might be involved in the unpredictability of real tables.

Tiny imperfections are the difference between realism and hyperrealism, and I definitely prefer any approach that gets us closer to the former. Ideally, it should be able to practise a table in Pinball Arcade, then go kick ass on the real thing (assuming some basic familiarity with real tables). I've definitely noticed an improvement in my skills on actual pool tables after spending a lot of time playing some good simulations. Pinball is a lot more complex to simulate than pool, but in theory the same principles should apply.

That said, I think it's a testament to how good the simulation in PA already is, that we're even having a conversation about such minute details about it.

 

[Stormchild]

Heck, I want randomness on the slingshots. Specifically the tops. Everytime a ball just touches them, it means "oh, time to turn on the automatic head to the outlane" routine.

I was wondering if it was just my imagination that the slingshots are so consistently deadly in Pinball Arcade. It's been a few years since I've played on an actual table, but I could have sworn I wasn't losing so many balls to straight drains off the slingshots on the real tables. Not just the one where it bounces lightly off the top of the slingshot and 9 times out of 10 it drains down the outlane, but the violent kick when it actually triggers the slingshot, which seems to blast it down the opposite outlane a lot more often than I remember it happening on real tables.

This could all be a case of confirmation bias, but I have a feeling this is a "where there's smoke, there's fire" situation. I'd be interested to hear if more people have the same suspicion.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Ideally, it should be able to practise a table in Pinball Arcade, then go kick ass on the real thing (assuming some basic familiarity with real tables). I've definitely noticed an improvement in my skills on actual pool tables after spending a lot of time playing some good simulations. Pinball is a lot more complex to simulate than pool, but in theory the same principles should apply.

Playing TPA will help some, but not as much as you think. In particular, it's a lot easier to nudge with a controller or even on a tablet than it is to manipulate a 250-lb table properly, especially since many tables have a much stricter tilt than TPA. For example, the Monster Bash on location here is particularly sensitive - anything more than fingertip nudging will get you a double danger at least.

What it is very good for is learning the shots on an unfamiliar table. I had never seen a Ripley's before TPA, but once I learned where the shots were on TPA (in terms of flipper sweet spots, whether a given target or ramp can be backhanded, etc.), that knowledge transferred almost perfectly to the real table.

I was wondering if it was just my imagination that the slingshots are so consistently deadly in Pinball Arcade. It's been a few years since I've played on an actual table, but I could have sworn I wasn't losing so many balls to straight drains off the slingshots on the real tables. Not just the one where it bounces lightly off the top of the slingshot and 9 times out of 10 it drains down the outlane, but the violent kick when it actually triggers the slingshot, which seems to blast it down the opposite outlane a lot more often than I remember it happening on real tables.

The arcade near me has about 70 tables. Some are crueler than others (mainly because the owner is not very consistent about where he sets the outlane posts), but most are capable of sling-to-outlane powerdrains. The other thing to keep in mind is that FarSight is aiming to recreate the tables as they were in pristine condition. In such a state, the slingshots will be at their fastest.

 

[Richard B]

The arcade near me has about 70 tables.

You lucky bastard. My whole city doesn't have 70 tables, even if you count the broken / malfunctioning ones.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

The arcade near me has about 70 tables. Some are crueler than others (mainly because the owner is not very consistent about where he sets the outlane posts), but most are capable of sling-to-outlane powerdrains. The other thing to keep in mind is that FarSight is aiming to recreate the tables as they were in pristine condition. In such a state, the slingshots will be at their fastest.

Back in the Nineties when I was learning to play, one of the things I had to have drilled into my head was the notion that if you let the ball go ricocheting horizontally between the slingshots, you were in a very bad situation. (To a newbie, it's not obvious, because the reaction is: great, that slingshot's got it covered for me; I don't even have to flip!)

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

I kinda feel like I can deal with the nasty slingshots, and somewhat too consistent ball behavior, just as long as we get more advanced flipper physics. I think this should the TOP priority of things to fix. If we can't do advanced flipper skills on TPA, then the whole collection might as well just be a casual gamer fest. I too want to use my time playing TPA to advance my real pin skills, but right now the flipper physics just aren't up to snuff.

 

[George Klepacz]

You lucky bastard. My whole city doesn't have 70 tables, even if you count the broken / malfunctioning ones.

Hahahahaha! I almost spit my water all over my pancakes!

 

[BonzoGonzo]

Even a brand new kicker on a pinball machine doesn't kick the ball out at an identical trajectory and velocity every time. Personally, I would like a little bit of random variance. Only a couple of degrees is all it would need. It's that subtle variation that makes pinball feel real and analogue.

If it's done right you will barely notice it, other than not being able to rely on identical bounces every time.

this

(ten characters)

 

[RetroDude]

I'd be happy with that many in my whole state.
:-(

I know of ONE machine within a 50 mile range... and that's in our Capital city.

Major bummer for a pinhead.