Several questions regarding Jack*Bot and Safe Cracker

[The-Man-In-Black]

IT CAN BE DONE!!!!!

I had earned 83 coins on one continuous run (using the PS4 suspend feature to get around the limitations about exiting or resetting the game).
I had earned 47 coins before that when attempting to go for it but not knowing the information in this thread.
I earned an unknown number of tokens before that just messing around with the table.

All in all, I'd say I earned between 150 and 175 tokens before the trophy popped.

https://imgur.com/a/dF1m4

F**k this table. F**k everything about this table. F**k those m****r f*****g coins. There is nothing skill based about that wizard goal. It's a luck based trophy that was made far more tedious than it needed to be. There's no reason why they couldn't just have the odds be 1 in 26 with no duplicates given out. The "we want to emulate the real table" excuse went out the window when they decided to add six tokens that never existed on the real table. There was no reason that Farsight needed to artificially up the "difficulty" to levels far beyond what they needed to be.

 

[Gorgar]

Congrats. I'm still hammering away at this thing with 24 out of 26. I hope to join you soon.

Edit: I finally did it too! The magic number for the continuous run for me was 81. So, maybe in the 80s (about 10 hours of play) without restarting is where people can expect to achieve this goal? Or maybe we were both lucky.

This is definitely the hardest goal in the game, but not as hard as I initially thought. Dr. Who Master of Time has a pretty difficult and confusing one, which I think is the runner up.

Anyway, looking forward to the Sorcerer update.

 

[The-Man-In-Black]

Congrats. I'm still hammering away at this thing with 24 out of 26. I hope to join you soon.

Edit: I finally did it too! The magic number for the continuous run for me was 81. So, maybe in the 80s (about 10 hours of play) without restarting is where people can expect to achieve this goal? Or maybe we were both lucky.

This is definitely the hardest goal in the game, but not as hard as I initially thought. Dr. Who Master of Time has a pretty difficult and confusing one, which I think is the runner up.

Anyway, looking forward to the Sorcerer update.

I would hardly call this difficult (note my sarcastic use of the word "difficult" in quotes above). Difficulty implies skill. There is exactly zero skill involved in this trophy. It's 100% luck and an abysmally low drop rate that exists because Farsight made the active decision to have an abysmally low drop rate just because they can.

Getting 3 million on Genie is skill. Getting to 360 seconds on Going Nuts is skill. Battle for the Kingdom on Medieval Madness is skill. Rule the Universe on Attack from Mars is skill. Those are among some of the hardest trophies in the game because they require skill and proficiency at the table. Safe Cracker will easily be the rarest trophy on the table (outside of the gold trophy for season 6), but I could think of a dozen that are legitimately more difficult.

I believe that this puts you as the first and only person to have achieved 100% completion on the PS4 -- a title you will probably have for quite some time, as I am the closest runner up and don't have nearly the skill to complete some tables like Going Nuts. Congratulations.

 

[Gorgar]

You're probably right unless patience is a skill. I have apparently been earning Safecracker tokens wrong the past 2 years (resetting the game whenever I didn't get a token so that light lock is always lit) and the amount of time I have spent on it just makes me feel like it is the hardest.

At the same time, maybe putting the time that you put into Safecracker on Goin Nuts or whatever will improve your skill enough to be able to do some of the harder ones.

 

[The-Man-In-Black]

You're probably right unless patience is a skill. I have apparently been earning Safecracker tokens wrong the past 2 years (resetting the game whenever I didn't get a token so that light lock is always lit) and the amount of time I have spent on it just makes me feel like it is the hardest.

That's exactly what I did before seeing the post from Tom above. With that being said, if Tom's info is accurate, based on the number of games you played, you had something like a 99+% chance of randomly earning it anyway. The fact that not a single person earned it before us and you played that many games over that period of time makes me believe that there's more to earning the token than just the .4% drop rate. I'm willing to bet that there are requirements which mean that even the most skilled player isn't going to earn the trophy via "normal" play without actively going out of their way for it.

At the same time, maybe putting the time that you put into Safecracker on Goin Nuts or whatever will improve your skill enough to be able to do some of the harder ones.

I'm just not *that* good when it comes to multiball, and reliably making the complex shots necessary to get the balls back into play while on a timer is a bit out of my skillset. There's some out there that I do plan on conquering, but I do believe that at least Going Nuts is going to remain elusive. That, and the table just sucks which makes it hard for me to want to dedicate time to playing it. Say what you will about this particular Wizard goal, but in general the Safe Cracker table is at least a lot more fun.

 

[Tom Devaney]

IT CAN BE DONE!!!!!

I had earned 83 coins on one continuous run (using the PS4 suspend feature to get around the limitations about exiting or resetting the game).
I had earned 47 coins before that when attempting to go for it but not knowing the information in this thread.
I earned an unknown number of tokens before that just messing around with the table.

All in all, I'd say I earned between 150 and 175 tokens before the trophy popped.

Awesome! Good job with that. Did you also put in around 10 hours during that continuous run like Gorgar did?

Congrats. I'm still hammering away at this thing with 24 out of 26. I hope to join you soon.

Edit: I finally did it too! The magic number for the continuous run for me was 81. So, maybe in the 80s (about 10 hours of play) without restarting is where people can expect to achieve this goal? Or maybe we were both lucky.

This is definitely the hardest goal in the game, but not as hard as I initially thought. Dr. Who Master of Time has a pretty difficult and confusing one, which I think is the runner up.

Good job Gorgar! If I understand things, that means you've received all of the Pinball Arcade trophies on PS4? If so, congrats. That's super impressive. If there were a Platinum, you'd deserve it. Although the next patch after Sorcerer will be adding a new trophy, so you'll have to put in some more work to get that one.

That's exactly what I did before seeing the post from Tom above. With that being said, if Tom's info is accurate, based on the number of games you played, you had something like a 99+% chance of randomly earning it anyway. The fact that not a single person earned it before us and you played that many games over that period of time makes me believe that there's more to earning the token than just the .4% drop rate. I'm willing to bet that there are requirements which mean that even the most skilled player isn't going to earn the trophy via "normal" play without actively going out of their way for it.

It's as simple as the base .4% drop rate, and the fact that every coin you get improves the chances of you getting that silver coin. It was entirely possible someone could've gotten it from regular play.


Side note: half of me was tempted to not post the secret of the table as it was interesting seeing 0% on the trophy, and I knew it was possible for someone to get it. I felt bad about the Safecracker tokens being wiped though, and it seemed extremely difficult to get this trophy without the knowledge. That and it seemed like Gorgar was ready to quit already.

 

[The-Man-In-Black]

Awesome! Good job with that. Did you also put in around 10 hours during that continuous run like Gorgar did?

I would probably say closer to 20. I was earning about 4 tokens/hour. Maybe I'm just not lucky with the board game, as even when I take the shortest path, I seem to hit obstacles a disproportionately high amount of the time. Granted, this is my own baseless speculation, but it seems that the board game is rigged to ensure that tokens don't get depleted *too* quickly. (Not saying it's necessarily a bad thing.....I could understand why they wouldn't want the machines to be depleted too quickly, as it would just become expensive and cumbersome for owners to maintain.)

Good job Gorgar! If I understand things, that means you've received all of the Pinball Arcade trophies on PS4? If so, congrats. That's super impressive. If there were a Platinum, you'd deserve it. Although the next patch after Sorcerer will be adding a new trophy, so you'll have to put in some more work to get that one.

I assume that this would be one gold trophy to cover all of season 7's tables, similar to what we got with season 6?

On a side note, why did they release a single patch where they went from having table-by-table trophies for seasons 2-5, then inexplicably lump them all in one trophy for season 6? Personally, I prefer the table-by-table method better; lumping them all in together means that being unable to complete the goals of one table prevents you from getting recognized for completing any (or all) of the others.

Also....why release a patch now adding trophies for tables that were released so long ago?

It's as simple as the base .4% drop rate, and the fact that every coin you get improves the chances of you getting that silver coin. It was entirely possible someone could've gotten it from regular play.

While I obviously don't have access to the source code, I find this highly questionable. At the very least, something doesn't seem to be working right. Given the number of games that Gorgar played, to say it's statistically unlikely that he won nearly 1000 tokens without winning the silver would be an understatement. And given the number of people that own the table, the chances that this trophy went 0% for so long is also statistically unlikely at the very least (as in less than a quarter of a percent of a chance of it happening just between me and Gorgar alone. Significantly less when you factor in other random tokens won by other players). I just find it incredibly hard to believe that everybody that played this table was so unlucky for so long, and that the two people who managed to achieve it (myself and Gorgar) only did so after lengthy, uninterrupted runs that will likely never happen during the course of normal play.

It also seems that this token is paid out dead last, as I don't believe that anyone has earned this token before earning the other 25. I could be wrong here. If it were simply a straight up .4% chance, surely we'd see some cases of people earning it earlier than dead last.

Side note: half of me was tempted to not post the secret of the table as it was interesting seeing 0% on the trophy, and I knew it was possible for someone to get it. I felt bad about the Safecracker tokens being wiped though, and it seemed extremely difficult to get this trophy without the knowledge. That and it seemed like Gorgar was ready to quit already.

I question this logic. Why would anyone want to withhold information so crucial? I understand wanting players to find things out for themselves, but in order to do that, they need to know what they're looking for exists and have at least some idea of how to find it. And nobody who decided that the drop rate would be so low and trapped under such requirements thought it was a bit much, especially when compared to other wizard goals? Bringing the drop rate to 1:26 and removing duplicates would still require earning 26 tokens, and therefore showing a level of skill and proficiency at the table that would be on par with other tables in the collection of similar difficulty. (Not counting this particular goal, the table itself is actually a relatively straight-forward table). I just don't see the benefits of making this wizard goal so artificially scarce. The excuse of wanting to be "just like a real table" doesn't hold water when the system is simply an RNG and contains six tokens (including the one in question) that didn't exist on the live machine in the first place.

And after seeing reports of people on other platforms earning the wizard goal after a number of plays that is within statistical norms, didn't anybody think that the fact that absolutely nobody earned it on the PS4 even after some have gone well above and beyond the average is unusual?

 

[Gorgar]

That's exactly what I did before seeing the post from Tom above. With that being said, if Tom's info is accurate, based on the number of games you played, you had something like a 99+% chance of randomly earning it anyway. The fact that not a single person earned it before us and you played that many games over that period of time makes me believe that there's more to earning the token than just the .4% drop rate. I'm willing to bet that there are requirements which mean that even the most skilled player isn't going to earn the trophy via "normal" play without actively going out of their way for it.

I thought there was something screwy going on with the tokens too. At three different points (I played two games where I earned 30 something tokens before earning 80 something) I would go through droughts where I would get around 30 duplicates in a row and then getting 3 new ones in a row. And the fact that it took us around the same amount of tokens in a single run to get the silver one seems odd too.

Good job Gorgar! If I understand things, that means you've received all of the Pinball Arcade trophies on PS4? If so, congrats. That's super impressive. If there were a Platinum, you'd deserve it. Although the next patch after Sorcerer will be adding a new trophy, so you'll have to put in some more work to get that one.

Yup. I have all of the trophies (but i don't like to rub it in. Shhhh). I already got a good head start on the season 7 ones. I have always loved the wizard goals in Pinball Arcade, even without the trophies because they challenge you to see pretty much everything the game has to offer. You can earn a high score, only to become frustrated when someone else beats it, but earning the wizard goals will remain satisfying. The trophies to me are just a cool way to see how other people are doing.

Side note: half of me was tempted to not post the secret of the table as it was interesting seeing 0% on the trophy, and I knew it was possible for someone to get it. I felt bad about the Safecracker tokens being wiped though, and it seemed extremely difficult to get this trophy without the knowledge. That and it seemed like Gorgar was ready to quit already.

I'm glad that you decided to share. A part of me thought of trying to go through a single run without quitting, but I was pretty sure I would be wasting time. And what if the cat accidentally steps on the circle button while on the start menu?

On a side note, why did they release a single patch where they went from having table-by-table trophies for seasons 2-5, then inexplicably lump them all in one trophy for season 6? Personally, I prefer the table-by-table method better; lumping them all in together means that being unable to complete the goals of one table prevents you from getting recognized for completing any (or all) of the others.

Also....why release a patch now adding trophies for tables that were released so long ago?

Tom posted some months ago that his original plan was to include trophies for all of the individual season 6 and 7 tables. But the initial patch was rejected by Sony because they went over Sony's trophy limit for freeware games. Which, okay the initial download is free, but each season in of itself costs the amount of a full game.

And your other question: Tom is the new PS4 guy and he is working hard to try to get the PS4 version on par with the other platforms. In addition to trophies, you might also notice that there is also finally a friend filter for the leaderboards.

 

[The-Man-In-Black]

I thought there was something screwy going on with the tokens too. At three different points (I played two games where I earned 30 something tokens before earning 80 something) I would go through droughts where I would get around 30 duplicates in a row and then getting 3 new ones in a row. And the fact that it took us around the same amount of tokens in a single run to get the silver one seems odd too.

The whole setup seems odd, IMO.

Yup. I have all of the trophies (but i don't like to rub it in. Shhhh). I already got a good head start on the season 7 ones. I have always loved the wizard goals in Pinball Arcade, even without the trophies because they challenge you to see pretty much everything the game has to offer. You can earn a high score, only to become frustrated when someone else beats it, but earning the wizard goals will remain satisfying. The trophies to me are just a cool way to see how other people are doing.

It's not "rubbing it in". Having all those trophies gives you a certain level of authority to discuss issues like this. Your opinion is more likely to (and should) carry more weight as your trophies will show your level of proficiency in the game and shows that you know what you're talking about. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm glad that you decided to share. A part of me thought of trying to go through a single run without quitting, but I was pretty sure I would be wasting time. And what if the cat accidentally steps on the circle button while on the start menu?

You have no idea how paranoid I was about similar scenarios. I was playing about 4-5 hours a day over the course of four days. What if there was even a slight power outage? What if the kids wanted to play PS4 while I was gone and didn't realize that I was in the midst of a run? What if *I* pressed the circle button accidentally at the wrong time? Stressful, to say the least. It would have sucked to see days worth of work down the drain over a bad button press or factors out of my control.

It's also a reason why I'm so critical of the whole setup. The ability to achieve a wizard goal should be based on gameplay and skill. This particular goal is entirely luck based and the only way to earn it seems to be to subject yourself to unreasonable play conditions (an uninterrupted session that is likely to last well over 10 hours and could last as long as 50) and factors out of your control (a game crash, power failure, etc. that you have no control over and can erase hours or even days worth of work in an instant).

I strongly urge Farsight to consider tweaking the requirements. As I said in a previous post, overhauling the requirements to give all tokens an equal chance of being earned and removing duplicates would still require the player to be proficient at the table, while not subjecting the player to excessive (to say the least) playing conditions that do nothing to show a level of proficiency that s/he didn't show during the first 26 or so games. Why subject a player who has already shown mastery of a table to requirements based on the whims of excessive luck?

Tom posted some months ago that his original plan was to include trophies for all of the individual season 6 and 7 tables. But the initial patch was rejected by Sony because they went over Sony's trophy limit for freeware games. Which, okay the initial download is free, but each season in of itself costs the amount of a full game.

I figured that Sony had something to do with the odd trophy structure. But I still do think it's strange. I wonder if having all the season 2-5 trophies being bronze instead of silver would have given them enough wiggle room to do the same with seasons 6-7 (and beyond....).

And your other question: Tom is the new PS4 guy and he is working hard to try to get the PS4 version on par with the other platforms. In addition to trophies, you might also notice that there is also finally a friend filter for the leaderboards.

Funny thing is....I couldn't care less about the leaderboards. I like to play pinball, complete wizard goals, and earn trophies for a personal sense of accomplishment, and have no need to compare myself to others. I also have a total of six friends on my friends list and they've probably played a total of 10 pinball games in their entire lives between them. While I personally have no real use for the leaderboards, we all play for different reasons.

 

[psykil]

How many games per token do you guys average (or tokens per game)? I want to know if I ever have a chance of seeing this.

 

[Byte]

I lost all my tokens in that save-game bug, when rebuilding from scratch using the above suspend mode method, I was at 7 earned, but only 3 different tokens before going to 8/4.

 

[The-Man-In-Black]

How many games per token do you guys average (or tokens per game)? I want to know if I ever have a chance of seeing this.

I was earning about 3-4 tokens/hr. From my interpretation of Gorgar's posts, he was earning about 5. Both of us got the last token after an uninterrupted run (with suspend mode) of over 80 games. If we are any indication, you can expect to have to complete an uninterrupted run lasting 16-20 hours at a minimum, more depending on how unlucky you are.

Tom has stated that even without an uninterrupted run, there is a .4% chance that you will come across the token randomly. However, we have not seen any indication that this is actually the case, as people have collectively played thousands of games without a silver token dropping. Statistically speaking, this should be next to impossible at this point. Which means that either there is a glitch/bug in the code that Tom doesn't know about, or he's not telling us something.

And for future reference, any one of the following will put a stop to an uninterrupted run:

• Pressing the Back (circle) button instead of the Select (X) button on the Start screen
• Pressing the Skip (Circle) button when asked to put in your initials when you achieve a high score
• Pausing the game, and selecting "Exit Game".
• Fully powering off your PS4.
• Any kind of power interruption. (Power failure, unplugging PS4, etc.)
• Restarting your PS4

If you are going to use Suspend mode, you must do so while the game is still being played. Long-press the PS button, select "Power", then select "Enter Rest Mode". Any other method of powering off your PS4 will negate all progress.

Note that if you somehow lose power, shut down, or unplug your PS4, all progress will be lost.