The Pinball Arcade table ratings

[invitro]

This list tells a lot more about TPA players than it does about TPA tables.

Well... this poll has an enormous number of participants (639!), and so I think is likely to have some accuracy. The ratings do appear to be strongly determined by popularity of the tables' real-life versions.

I'm very grateful to [MENTION=396]smbhax[/MENTION] for continuing to run this thing, good data is hard to get and I think this is very good data.

P.S. Any survey tells things about its takers as well as the subject matter.

 

[kinggo]

sure, but I still think that it tells more about average TPA player. Funny thing is, so many people wanted Fireball, and now when it is here it is almost at the bottom. Then F-14..... OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG it's coming it's coming.......... and now it isn't even in top half of the list. And position is actually irrelevant for what I'm saying. But when I see that Genie has less then 5 then again I think that it tells way more about average player then about a game.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

For most games, I'd agree that the ranking kinda reflects the real table. Black Knight, sadly, does reflect quite badly in its implementation.

And comparing the problems Black Knight has with a couple of defects in AFM and MM (and, on PC at least, the AFM right ramp issue has been fixed - still getting the occasional collision problem with the right ramp on MM) isn't really fair.

The trouble with emulating Genie, Firepower, and Black Knight is that they're all unique MPUs not used in any other tables; so you're doing a lot of work to do emulation that works on multiple platforms just for one game. Emulation for Goin' Nuts has its own unique set of problems, not least of which is FS don't actually have the ROM on site (I think that's all the non-emulated SS tables, amiright?)

 

[BStarfire]

Woohoo....a chance to use my sociology and polling data studies since college. 639 participants is not statistically significant in terms of representing TPA users. It would be if it were a random sample under the right conditions. In that case, you might not even need that many. It is 100% accurate in reflecting the ratings of those who chose to participate.

Still, I enjoy seeing the data and it is fun to have the info compiled. It certainly doesn't match my ratings very closely , so maybe I should actually submit mine.

I like Fireball, and maybe that's something the data indicates... People that like older tables are less likely to participate in data submission.

 

[Gorgar]

For most games, I'd agree that the ranking kinda reflects the real table. Black Knight, sadly, does reflect quite badly in its implementation.

And comparing the problems Black Knight has with a couple of defects in AFM and MM (and, on PC at least, the AFM right ramp issue has been fixed - still getting the occasional collision problem with the right ramp on MM) isn't really fair.

The trouble with emulating Genie, Firepower, and Black Knight is that they're all unique MPUs not used in any other tables; so you're doing a lot of work to do emulation that works on multiple platforms just for one game. Emulation for Goin' Nuts has its own unique set of problems, not least of which is FS don't actually have the ROM on site (I think that's all the non-emulated SS tables, amiright?)

Gorgar and Black Hole are scripted as well. And I think Black Hole uses the same MPU as Haunted House

 

[Rich Lehmann]

This is a joke of course. Nobody would seriously suggest that people having different taste to you means they suck at the subject in question and have no right expressing their opinion. It is a joke, right?

But it's not just taste; my overriding memory of Black Knight in TPA is going for a score based wizard goal and having to start over again and again and again, thanks to a game ending bug wrecking my game every single time. That's why it's my lowest ranking table (yes, below Goin' Nuts). It's the one table I can almost guarantee will screw up, so why bother playing?

If Farsight fixes the bugs <pause for laughter> then the table will rank a lot better.

No, it's not. It's like when someone voices the opinion that Lady Gaga is a better Musician than Mozart, you can immediately deduce that the person with this opinion knows nothing about music.

 

[invitro]

Woohoo....a chance to use my sociology and polling data studies since college. 639 participants is not statistically significant in terms of representing TPA users. It would be if it were a random sample under the right conditions. In that case, you might not even need that many.

It's not right to say that the sample is not statistically significant. Significance applies only to a particular claim ("MM is the most popular TPA table", the hypothesis), with a particular significance level (though it's probably OK to assume 5%). Then the sample size is a key factor in the test of significance. Also, 639 sure seems like it should be a large enough sample of TPA players to give significance for many hypotheses, unless the sample is very unrepresentative... I remember 1000 as being a good number for samples of the US population, though I could be misremembering. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance )

 

[shutyertrap]

No, it's not. It's like when someone voices the opinion that Lady Gaga is a better Musician than Mozart, you can immediately deduce that the person with this opinion knows nothing about music.

Or just plain can't stand classical music. If you are talking about musical composition and theory, then you 'might' be correct in that they don't know about that aspect of music. This argument was had in the movie 'Amadeus' I believe.

I haven't added any new ratings to this survey since it was first put up. Back then, I set some rules up for myself. The first was that I was going to rate tables solely on what I thought of playing them in TPA. I've had real world experience with almost every table in the collection, and I think this is a huge distinction to make.

The second stipulation I put on myself was that there had to be an equal spread from 1-10. After all, it makes no sense to rank tables if out of 50 you gave half a 9 or 10, and the rest 7's and 8's. If you are being honest with yourself and making a true ranking, something comes out on top, something makes the bottom of the list, and there are no ties.

The last factor, and the one I said in my original rankings post, was what tables I play the most. I love Whirlwind, but I simply don't play it much in TPA.

Using that criteria, I sank Black Knight pretty much to the bottom, giving it a 1. But then in real life, I don't like Black Knight either. Shoot, I don't even care for BK 2000. It's simply a matter of taste, based on how I like to play, how I like my play field layouts, and how I like the scoring.

Now if you feel that makes me not know anything about pinball, so be it. Some people may think you're a douche. Doesn't mean you are. I also happen to hate classical music, and would much prefer to listen to some vacuous pop over it any day. It's art, it's subjective, not mathematical. There is no truth, only opinion.

 

[invitro]

I also happen to hate classical music, and would much prefer to listen to some vacuous pop over it any day. It's art, it's subjective, not mathematical.

I partially agree with you, but I think calling vacuous pop music art is really pushing it. It's hard to define art, but one thing that is true is that art is timeless... true art will be enjoyed for (at least) hundreds of years, or at least decades. This isn't the entire definition of course, but if no one is listening to 2016's vacuous pop songs in 2066, they probably are not art, and if they are, they probably are. Millions of people still enjoy Mozart, of course. (This is a reason why I have trouble with the claim that video games are art... almost no one plays any video game older than ten years.)

Also, there's a difference between preferring pop music to classical music, and not knowing much about music...

 

[Rudy hates me]

No, it's not. It's like when someone voices the opinion that Lady Gaga is a better Musician than Mozart, you can immediately deduce that the person with this opinion knows nothing about music.

Hmm.. sorry but that's not quite right. If people were ranking the tables in terms of how well they thought they were designed on a technical level, then that argument would hold. However, people are ranking them on how much they enjoy them, so you can only liken it to somebody saying they enjoy Lady Gaga's music more than Mozart's, and that's purely subjective and can't be argued with.

I'd say ignore the poll if it bothers you and carry on enjoying what you enjoy. Personally I find it interesting, and yes, I do strongly disagree with a number of the placings, but then that's just my taste.

 

[shutyertrap]

I partially agree with you, but I think calling vacuous pop music art is really pushing it. It's hard to define art, but one thing that is true is that art is timeless... true art will be enjoyed for (at least) hundreds of years, or at least decades. This isn't the entire definition of course, but if no one is listening to 2016's vacuous pop songs in 2066, they probably are not art, and if they are, they probably are. Millions of people still enjoy Mozart, of course. (This is a reason why I have trouble with the claim that video games are art... almost no one plays any video game older than ten years.)

Also, there's a difference between preferring pop music to classical music, and not knowing much about music...

You are applying the test of time though to determine if something is artistic. There is plenty of art that is temporary. That artist Cristo, who covered landscapes in cloth, or planted all those umbrellas in California, all those were temporary art instillations and no longer available for anyone to appreciate, but it certainly was art. I liken video games to that, where it is of the time, but not timeless. At the time it can be the height of art, while later fading. To the people at the moment, it touched them maybe deeper than any classic work of art could. Interestingly enough, how often is it that painters we revere now were totally dismissed at the time? Is fashion not considered art? Yet it can become passe within months, and then become a thing again 20 years later.

I said 'vacuous' so as to not single out any one artist or genre. What one is to one person is not to another. Or as the famous quote goes, "I may not know much about art, but I know what I like when I see it." And isn't that what makes art, art?

 

[Fungi]

Well thought out words indeed SYT, but after all is said and done... Bieber still blows.

 

[Rich Lehmann]

And someone might have the opinion that a Moderator who responds to comments he disagrees with by calling them a "douche" is a passive aggressive a-hole. But then again maybe you are just really sensitive about Lady Gaga.

 

[Spork98765]

The trouble with emulating Genie, Firepower, and Black Knight is that they're all unique MPUs not used in any other tables; so you're doing a lot of work to do emulation that works on multiple platforms just for one game. Emulation for Goin' Nuts has its own unique set of problems, not least of which is FS don't actually have the ROM on site (I think that's all the non-emulated SS tables, amiright?)

IF FS doesn't do the emulation it is basically them saying they will never do any more 80's tables, or at least it is showing that that era isn't a priority. That signifies the coming of the end, despite the "mission statement" of preserving pinball; there are only so many alphnumeric/DMDs left until moving onto nothing but Stern.

However by emulating these they open the door for even more tables.

Genie gets Buck Rogers, Roller Disco, Jungle Queen, Joker Poker, (the non-Interflip) Dragon etc.

Black Hole and Haunted House gets Volcano, Mars God of War, James Bond 007, The Amazing Spiderman, etc

Black Knight gets Jungle Lord, Pharoh, Solar Fire, Barracora, Defender, Joust, Firepower II, etc.

The only ones that have a limited range are Firepower and Gorgar. Emulating them really only allows for a maximum of 5 more tables, but really only 2-3 of them are any good; Blackout, Time Warp (Banana Flippers, Yo!), then maybe Scorpion or Laser Ball; really depends on preference of layout.

**** we have Flight 2000 emulated, and how many other tables use it's MPU; oh right, in TPA none. Or was it just an exceptional scripting job ...

 

[invitro]

You are applying the test of time though to determine if something is artistic. There is plenty of art that is temporary. That artist Cristo, who covered landscapes in cloth, or planted all those umbrellas in California, all those were temporary art instillations and no longer available for anyone to appreciate, but it certainly was art. I liken video games to that, where it is of the time, but not timeless. At the time it can be the height of art, while later fading. To the people at the moment, it touched them maybe deeper than any classic work of art could. Interestingly enough, how often is it that painters we revere now were totally dismissed at the time? Is fashion not considered art? Yet it can become passe within months, and then become a thing again 20 years later.

I said 'vacuous' so as to not single out any one artist or genre. What one is to one person is not to another. Or as the famous quote goes, "I may not know much about art, but I know what I like when I see it." And isn't that what makes art, art?

These are interesting topics and hard to talk about. For the temporary art, the physical objects were temporary, but there are photographs and videos that can last indefinitely, and those, and memories, are the real art. No one alive has heard Mozart, and very few have seen his actual physical compositions, but that doesn't make Mozart temporary, as his art lives on, with little to no decline in quality, as reproductions.

I like that you mentioned fashion. Fashion may be the opposite of art, or one aspect of the opposite of art. Certainly pop music is fashion. Fashion is popularity, art is quality. Fashion is ephemeral, art is timeless. Etc., etc.

If something fades to virtual nothingness (quickly), it can't be art, by my definition. At least if it was very widely known at one time. And I'm not saying that video games can never be art, just that they haven't become art yet.

Art does not become art because one person likes it, not at all. Whether you as a single person likes something has no bearing on its status as art. What does matter is what collective humanity thinks of it, or at least lots and lots of people, over a long period of time.

 

[smbhax]

Still, I enjoy seeing the data and it is fun to have the info compiled. It certainly doesn't match my ratings very closely , so maybe I should actually submit mine.

You should! ^_^

 

[shutyertrap]

And someone might have the opinion that a Moderator who responds to comments he disagrees with by calling them a "douche" is a passive aggressive a-hole.

Oh damn, guilty as charged. Now that we have that out of the way...

These are interesting topics and hard to talk about. For the temporary art, the physical objects were temporary, but there are photographs and videos that can last indefinitely, and those, and memories, are the real art. No one alive has heard Mozart, and very few have seen his actual physical compositions, but that doesn't make Mozart temporary, as his art lives on, with little to no decline in quality, as reproductions.

I like that you mentioned fashion. Fashion may be the opposite of art, or one aspect of the opposite of art. Certainly pop music is fashion. Fashion is popularity, art is quality. Fashion is ephemeral, art is timeless. Etc., etc.

If something fades to virtual nothingness (quickly), it can't be art, by my definition. At least if it was very widely known at one time. And I'm not saying that video games can never be art, just that they haven't become art yet.

Art does not become art because one person likes it, not at all. Whether you as a single person likes something has no bearing on its status as art. What does matter is what collective humanity thinks of it, or at least lots and lots of people, over a long period of time.

I think a lot of people desperately want for everything they like to be considered art, and take it as personal offense that something they like is not considered art. And for things that they don't like or don't care to take the time or effort to understand, that are considered art, to be denigrated in any way possible. This psychological condition is all over the place with video games. I think it's a shame that this is the case, and that such people can't get over themselves.

Yep, very difficult to talk about and vastly interesting. So many angles one can take to make an argument, and so many angles to counter those. I think every medium has had this discussion, and it never can be truly answered apart from an individuals own interpretation. It's almost like when people argue about various 'sports' you might find on ESPN. Like golf. Isn't that just a skill? Not unlike darts or pool? And certainly poker isn't a sport. Or all these indeed sports, because they are competition? Depends on how you define it, yeah?

Okay, you know you've gone way off topic when you have to look at the top of the page to see what the thread is even about! So about those table ratings...

 

[Kolchak357]

I enjoy this thread. I like seeing where I differ greatly from the norm. I also change my ratings from time to time. Repeated play and knowing all the rules has often changed my opinion (both positive and negative) on a pin that I had limited real life experience with.

 

[soundwave106]

Funny thing is, so many people wanted Fireball, and now when it is here it is almost at the bottom. Then F-14..... OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG it's coming it's coming.......... and now it isn't even in top half of the list. And position is actually irrelevant for what I'm saying. But when I see that Genie has less then 5 then again I think that it tells way more about average player then about a game.

There's a very vocal crowd that likes EMs / early SS machines... and there's a very vocal crowd that hates them. So the fact that a table from this era is ranked low doesn't mean it's a bad table per se. Even the System 11 games are going to be less popular than the 90s DMDs.

The trouble with emulating Genie, Firepower, and Black Knight is that they're all unique MPUs not used in any other tables; so you're doing a lot of work to do emulation that works on multiple platforms just for one game.

System 7 boards actually are to some degree backward compatible with System 3,4,5, and 6 from what I understand. So in theory it would be possible to write an emulation that could cover *all* of those games, I think. The big problem with this sort of investment is that older tables don't sell as well, I imagine. A shame, because it would be great getting Firepower, Gorgar, and Black Knight emulated. Firepower and Black Knight in particular suffer from bugs that make me not play those tables due to the high likelihood of a game-ending snafu.

 

[invitro]

There's a very vocal crowd that likes EMs / early SS machines... and there's a very vocal crowd that hates them.

Why do you say the haters are vocal? I think they're extremely quiet, as there is almost never an anti-EM or anti-early-SS post on PAF, and the number of people who don't like them of course greatly outweighs the number that like them, or else TPA would be mostly these machines instead of mostly DMD's. This seems to actually be the silent majority.