Time for new tournament rules?

[Locksley]

I voted for random variety. There's pros and cons to each of the suggested.
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I am loving the PC tournament as it is, and wouldn't change anything about it.
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I've seen you on allot more than usual... allot SYT being online ingame on Steam. I agree with the general 'taking the joy of pinball away' feeling and as you rightly states, with your self implored considerations it will feel better.

And Invitro, wouldn't you like having it shaken up a bit? I feel that people have different comfort zones playing games and if you stick with one set of rules you exclude them, or force them to play the game in a way that makes them slightly nauseas

Also agree on how high scores inspire. I am pretty happy that I am a consistent player; that is a basic to grow on and shows it is not just luck for me. I am roughly at the same spot in the TPA PC tournament as I am in ToTM; and I know I can get allot better.
I don't like long games so the 20 min or less is a blessing. Kinda don't like grinding so fewer opportunities to play a game would suit me as I am a consistent player and would score roughly what my potential is.
But then again I see others having different ideas and for myself I like to be challenged outside my own comfort zone, so mixing up the rules seems to me an interesting idea.

Hackers and cheaters - very irritating that they can not be punished, just hoping that there is recognition of what is what (no idea if FS have any checks installed whilst playing, maybe they should implement some if they haven't done so already).

invitro - I did not beat you this ToTM, but as long as we don't look at the scores we got 2 wins each, if I remember correctly. So how about a tie

 

[JPelter]

Honestly my opinion is that it's just something fun to do. Getting all super serious about these tournaments isn't really productive due to how TPA works. A little competition is fun, but in the end it's still just supposed to be for fun, and I know I've at least personally lost sight of that sometimes. There's always going to be someone who can play better/is willing to play more than you can, and in the end the best tournament rules are going to be the ones most people have fun with.

I'm going to go with changing up tournament rules for every tournament. Take off/change the time limit, add tokens, add limited attempts per table, blind, last score only etc. Mix and match and if people have good ideas add those to the pool too. Also this should go without saying but if/when they come up with the tournament settings for tables those should be added too since I feel it's a much more legit way to shorten games than a time limiter. Some people disagree though and that's fine too. There's cool pinball available for everyone.

 

[invitro]

And Invitro, wouldn't you like having it shaken up a bit? I feel that people have different comfort zones playing games and if you stick with one set of rules you exclude them, or force them to play the game in a way that makes them slightly nauseas
...
Also agree on how high scores inspire.
...
I don't like long games so the 20 min or less is a blessing. Kinda don't like grinding so fewer opportunities to play a game would suit me as I am a consistent player and would score roughly what my potential is.
...
Hackers and cheaters - very irritating that they can not be punished, just hoping that there is recognition of what is what (no idea if FS have any checks installed whilst playing, maybe they should implement some if they haven't done so already).
...
invitro - I did not beat you this ToTM, but as long as we don't look at the scores we got 2 wins each, if I remember correctly. So how about a tie

I feel very bad about my post above, which I've deleted. It was mean-spirited, and incorrect, and I apologize for the negativity. I need to work on being more understanding of different people's views and experiences.

I'm fine with having different rules... being on PC, this is the 1st official tourney for me, so I'm perhaps overly excited about it, overly eager to enjoy it and not see its faults. Perhaps I'm paranoid (in a bad way) and worried about it being changed to something I'd enjoy less, or even taken away. I do love the strategy involved in maxing score in 20 minutes, though.

One table I've been inspired by the performances on is Victory, which I maybe used to just get 410M on for my new high, though it wasn't enjoyable due to feeling poorly.

I don't know if emailing Farsight about the tourney hackers has any effect, but I did yesterday, I posted my message in the PC tournament thread. I don't think this is LAW's area, so I don't know anything to do except email support.

A tie on TotM is fine! As long as you'll play the PC tourney tables some more... I noticed a Space Shuttle score of yours...

 

[switch3flip]

Hmm I kinda liked your post invitro I was impressed, I think it was pretty clear sighted. It might not necessarily be the whole truth but it had lots if essence. My feelings towards tourney format are surely influenced by what you described.

 

[vikingerik]

I truly love competing in TotM, and grinding on a table during TotW has actually increased my enjoyment of some tables. I've been grinding on RBION for this tourney, determined to go from 3rd behind two trolls to first. I was very very close. And then Vikingerik comes in and utterly nukes the scores. I now have no desire to touch RBION, and it's one of my favorite tables.

Not that it's going to make you feel better, but RBION is an odd duck for the 20 minute time limit because the scoring is so chunky with the tours. I didn't do twice as much within 20 minutes as anyone else, far from it. Ignore the numbers. Look past them for what constructed them. The only real difference between my game and yours is that I grinded Bigfoot for 35M. Then we got the same 3 continent tours at 2x. Or compared to other games, perhaps I made the same Bigfoot grinding, then squeaked in the third continent tour compared to others that only made two.

 

[Tann]

I voted for random variety. There's pros and cons to each of the suggested.

Yeah, the random rules would be great. But knowing FS, if they have to implement each rule, we could see all of it in one or two years. ^^

At the moment, as somebody pointed out earlier in this thread, the limited attempts with the best score registered is already in the game, via the challenge mode (except on consoles, of course).

So I think the solution for me is to impose my own limitations. I will pick a day or two to play. I will only play a limited number of times. As Gus pointed out, that is usually a true indicator of my ability, rather than hoping for that one freak game.

+1. That's how I play since a few tourneys. I don't even try to reach the top 10 anymore, I just secure my place in the tier (easy) and play 2 or 3 games per table (and even only 1 game on tables I don't like), not more. Being in the top 30% is enough now.

But, hey, it's not very fun. It's like go to work. Implement limited attempts will renew my interest for tourneys, adding the true feeling of a competition, with some tension and randomness. Like any tourney IRL.

 

[vikingerik]

I do love the strategy involved in maxing score in 20 minutes, though.

I do too. It's definitely neat to see the tables through a new lens, shaking up the strategies we've known forever. This tournament was the first time I shot the slot machine on TZ in ages, for example.

But the problem is each table is only really solvable once. There's always a fastest way to score, and once somebody finds and exploits it, it really can hurt the fun factor for everyone else. We called out the 1M bonus bounty on Cactus Canyon and Bigfoot on Ripley's and showed what they could do, and from now on everybody has to do that to see a competitive top score on the table. The 20 minute limit loosens the straps only briefly and then chokes in even tighter on feasible lines of play. If we're fortunate, at least we'll see some tables where the fastest way to score is pretty much to play normally as on TZ, but for every one of those, there's ten other tables with one narrow fastest path.

The 20 minute limit is just a band-aid on top of the real problem that the tables take too long by just being too easy, both in the railroad physics and the lack of any tournament mode game settings. That's the real way to go, and real pinball tournaments figured that out decades ago.

As for applying a rule for limited attempts... that needs to come after real tournament mode game settings. Otherwise you just get screwed out of tables with any random factor. You need a big Camera Collect Bonus on TZ or the 1M bounty on CC to be competitive, and if that doesn't happen to come up in your limited attempts, then you're just dead.

 

[JPelter]

I do too. It's definitely neat to see the tables through a new lens, shaking up the strategies we've known forever. This tournament was the first time I shot the slot machine on TZ in ages, for example.

But the problem is each table is only really solvable once. There's always a fastest way to score, and once somebody finds and exploits it, it really can hurt the fun factor for everyone else. We called out the 1M bonus bounty on Cactus Canyon and Bigfoot on Ripley's and showed what they could do, and from now on everybody has to do that to see a competitive top score on the table. The 20 minute limit loosens the straps only briefly and then chokes in even tighter on feasible lines of play. If we're fortunate, at least we'll see some tables where the fastest way to score is pretty much to play normally as on TZ, but for every one of those, there's ten other tables with one narrow fastest path.

The 20 minute limit is just a band-aid on top of the real problem that the tables take too long by just being too easy, both in the railroad physics and the lack of any tournament mode game settings. That's the real way to go, and real pinball tournaments figured that out decades ago.

As for applying a rule for limited attempts... that needs to come after real tournament mode game settings. Otherwise you just get screwed out of tables with any random factor. You need a big Camera Collect Bonus on TZ or the 1M bounty on CC to be competitive, and if that doesn't happen to come up in your limited attempts, then you're just dead.

Just posting to note that I 100% agree with everything here.

 

[invitro]

But the problem is each table is only really solvable once. There's always a fastest way to score, and once somebody finds and exploits it, it really can hurt the fun factor for everyone else. We called out the 1M bonus bounty on Cactus Canyon and Bigfoot on Ripley's and showed what they could do, and from now on everybody has to do that to see a competitive top score on the table. The 20 minute limit loosens the straps only briefly and then chokes in even tighter on feasible lines of play. If we're fortunate, at least we'll see some tables where the fastest way to score is pretty much to play normally as on TZ, but for every one of those, there's ten other tables with one narrow fastest path.

Whose fun factor has been hurt by the exploits? The CC 1M bonus was probably well-known to top players already, so revealing that didn't do anything. The Bigfoot, sure... IF you're not having fun because you're not gonna get #1. For me, I don't care... if you're playing, #2 is number one. In particular, my fun factor was not hurt at all... indeed, it was strengthened as I learned a new tidbit about RBIoN (and new tidbits about all of the tables). There can't be that many people who this has had a negative effect on. How big a problem are you claiming this is? Do you claim that the strategy under a 20-minute limit is as clear as it is without a time limit?

I think that the 20-minute limit has increased my enjoyment of this PC tourney.

The optimum strategy under the 20-minute limit is not obvious to me for most tables. We just had the beginning of a discussion of this in the PC thread . I think you need to give more evidence to support your claims... but maybe some clarification is needed. Exactly which tables do you think have an optimum 20-minute strategy that is known now, what is that strategy, and how many people know it? What is a competitive top score? How are you using "narrow"?

I am genuinely interested in these questions, and I want to know the answers... as always I am not claiming to be good at strategy, but some of the claims you're making seem specious, or at least need more evidence.

Examples: I'm #2 on CC right now. I got one 1M bonus bounty in that game. Now, if the narrow path is just "get one 1M bonus bounty", that just doesn't seem narrow to me, at least when we have plenty of tries. There may be more to the CC path, but I don't know what it is... you need to mention it . Is getting High Noon in the path? Certainly a narrow path must say whether getting High Noon is required, right? How about stacking Showdown with another multiball; is that required?

Next: I'm #5 in Space Shuttle. The strategy that I think you mentioned, or maybe someone else, was multiball and stop-and-shoot. In my game, I ignored both, and just shot the spinner until it was maxed and I had gotten one or two EBs. I may have played a few multiballs then, I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure I just kept shooting the spinner. Well, I think #5 is competitive, it's good enough for me... I'm not saying that my way is as good, just that it's not required to do MB/ramp for a competitive score. If competitive means good enough for #1, that's fine, but then how many people are affected?

The 20 minute limit is just a band-aid on top of the real problem that the tables take too long by just being too easy, both in the railroad physics and the lack of any tournament mode game settings. That's the real way to go, and real pinball tournaments figured that out decades ago.

I agree that unrailroading and tourney settings would be an improvement, but it's not a big deal to me.

As for applying a rule for limited attempts... that needs to come after real tournament mode game settings. Otherwise you just get screwed out of tables with any random factor. You need a big Camera Collect Bonus on TZ or the 1M bounty on CC to be competitive, and if that doesn't happen to come up in your limited attempts, then you're just dead.

My #6 TZ had no Camera Collect Bonus. I was thinking before playing any that needing a big one would be required, as that one I think -is- obvious , but big deal... getting one of those in a 20-minute game should be easy, and for players at the level you're talking about (less than ten PC players, maybe?) it should be guaranteed, and so saying you need to do this doesn't seem like much of a strategy.

To sum up: I claim that you don't need to follow one narrow path to get a top 10 score on SpSh, TO, TZ, CC, and Co1812. Victory, maybe... I don't know how many EBs are required for its narrow path. RBIoN, sure, if getting at least two doubled tours and one undoubled one counts as narrow. HH, I don't know its narrow path, or even wide path.

P.S. I don't know if it's been announced that tourney mode settings are coming soon... it seems like that might take awhile, and it seems like limited attempts would take less time. So I think discussion of limited attempts even before tourney settings is legit (although I really really do not want limited attempts, because I'm sure they will be -too- limited).

 

[Gus]

I have a feeling Vikingerik doesn't aim for top 10, but first place. A big camera collect bonus on TZ would certainly help increasing the total score for anyone. On Co1812 it seems to me like the fastest way to score is chaining leftramps - the sky is the limit on how many you can hit there in 20 minutes. On Victory I'd say the optimal number of EBs is zero on a 20 minute game, there is no bonus to speak of so it's better to just keep shooting spinners/check-points after reaching x8 scoring, and those are pretty safe shots.

 

[JPelter]

Camera collect is really only super relevant if you actually play powerball instead of multiball. Offhand it seems there's really little variation in score between the two approaches. I mean if you were absolutely perfect at using the powerball in regular multiball you could obviously crush the game, but no one is that good. I don't really like posting scoring approaches for these in general because in my view finding the best paths is about the only really fun thing in the 20 minute tournaments, and I feel like it would be depriving people the fun of doing that.

 

[soundwave106]

Next: I'm #5 in Space Shuttle. The strategy that I think you mentioned, or maybe someone else, was multiball and stop-and-shoot. In my game, I ignored both, and just shot the spinner until it was maxed and I had gotten one or two EBs. I may have played a few multiballs then, I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure I just kept shooting the spinner.

Generally speaking, I thought that *was* the strategy. Shoot the spinner for bonus multiplier. I aimed for multiballs though whenever the inevitable right outlane "airlock" was closed via an erratic pop bumper shot, unless I could get a good shot at the airlock targets though. The spinner is too unsafe IMHO without the airlock gate open. I'm at #10 on Space Shuttle last I looked.

I don't know what is meant by "competitive" here. Some tables are unbalanced regardless of physics or anything else. Teed Off is a great example of an unbalanced game, with its score doubling Skins game, it's random Go-Fore-Par-Tee, and an entirely too huge of a reliance on Raining Cats and Dogs / Anything Goes trap-and-loop. Is knowledge of these things an "exploit"? More like a not-so-great rulesheet.

All the other "exploits" mentioned sound similar, a somewhat poor scoring rules design, although I would personally argue that Ripleys and Cactus are nowhere *near* as unbalanced as Teed Off is. Ripley's in fact is more or less a result of normal play: the strategy is pretty much concentrate on the continents, right? Which includes Bigfoot along the way.

 

[JPelter]

Generally speaking, I thought that *was* the strategy. Shoot the spinner for bonus multiplier. I aimed for multiballs though whenever the inevitable right outlane "airlock" was closed via an erratic pop bumper shot, unless I could get a good shot at the airlock targets though. The spinner is too unsafe IMHO without the airlock gate open. I'm at #10 on Space Shuttle last I looked.

I don't know what is meant by "competitive" here. Some tables are unbalanced regardless of physics or anything else. Teed Off is a great example of an unbalanced game, with its score doubling Skins game, it's random Go-Fore-Par-Tee, and an entirely too huge of a reliance on Raining Cats and Dogs / Anything Goes trap-and-loop. Is knowledge of these things an "exploit"? More like a not-so-great rulesheet.

All the other "exploits" mentioned sound similar, a somewhat poor scoring rules design, although I would personally argue that Ripleys and Cactus are nowhere *near* as unbalanced as Teed Off is. Ripley's in fact is more or less a result of normal play: the strategy is pretty much concentrate on the continents, right? Which includes Bigfoot along the way.

I have to say I actually disagree on tee'd off. The doubler is definitely a major problem for tournaments on the table, but otherwise there are an astounding variety of different ways to put up a massive score on the table, way more than any other table I can think of offhand. Apart from the skins game it's an incredibly well balanced table. Probably the best modern gottlieb.

Cactus Canyon is completely baffling to me. I had what I would categorize as an ideal game today and only got 280M out of it. It really doesn't help that none of the rulesheets available for the table are very detailed.

 

[invitro]

Generally speaking, I thought that *was* the strategy. Shoot the spinner for bonus multiplier. I aimed for multiballs though whenever the inevitable right outlane "airlock" was closed via an erratic pop bumper shot, unless I could get a good shot at the airlock targets though. The spinner is too unsafe IMHO without the airlock gate open.

v.e. says: "No real secret here, just get multiball and pound the stop-and-score. I did have to go for the drops and spinner to get a couple EBs, can't go the full 20 minutes on just three balls." in http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...ing-on-June-29?p=213738&viewfull=1#post213738.

Ripley's in fact is more or less a result of normal play: the strategy is pretty much concentrate on the continents, right? Which includes Bigfoot along the way.

v.e. has a detailed strategy for RBIoN: "Don't play Antarctica or Africa at all, just drain out of them ASAP, they can't score fast enough to compete with Bigfoot and tours. Ignore the other continents as well, just pound more tours as fast as possible after getting one good Bigfoot. You might even consider draining during Australia to bypass the time you're locked out from starting other continents, or during Europe if it's the last one still running before a tour." in http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...ing-on-June-29?p=213728&viewfull=1#post213728.

 

[invitro]

A big camera collect bonus on TZ would certainly help increasing the total score for anyone.

Indubitably, but the question is whether getting this bonus is required. Note v.e. claims: "You need a big Camera Collect Bonus on TZ ... and if that doesn't happen to come up in your limited attempts, then you're just dead".

 

[JPelter]

Indubitably, but the question is whether getting this bonus is required. Note v.e. claims: "You need a big Camera Collect Bonus on TZ ... and if that doesn't happen to come up in your limited attempts, then you're just dead".

The difference between the camera in TZ and say the bounty in CC is that the camera is a cycle of rewards instead of truly randomized. You can guarantee getting the camera bonus collect even during a 20 minute run.

 

[shutyertrap]

Not that it's going to make you feel better, but RBION is an odd duck for the 20 minute time limit because the scoring is so chunky with the tours. I didn't do twice as much within 20 minutes as anyone else, far from it. Ignore the numbers. Look past them for what constructed them. The only real difference between my game and yours is that I grinded Bigfoot for 35M. Then we got the same 3 continent tours at 2x. Or compared to other games, perhaps I made the same Bigfoot grinding, then squeaked in the third continent tour compared to others that only made two.

Oh, I hear you. There were times when the alignment of how I got continents was just perfect. I'd start Europe, immediately light and start South America, and then get NA, Africa, or Antarctica. I could swear one time I even had Asia in that mix, but my memory might be playing tricks as I don't know if you can stack 4. All I know was that in about 3 minutes I had collected everything. Unfortunately that happened to be the game where things were going a little too well and I started Atlantis too. All would have been fine except then I botched collecting 2x on my final continent tour and what should have been a 190 mil score limped in at 170 (the final one I posted).

I know I sound bitter. I'm actually not and kinda have to just laugh. I'll go into it in our next podcast to be sure, where the tone of my voice will make all the difference. I was just at league night yesterday, where I utterly fell flat on my face and couldn't do well on (Un)Funhouse, Addams Family, Party Zone, or Cactus Canyon Continued. Only on Creature did I take a commanding win like I should have with a group of tables I've been able to play in TPA. Then there was Buccaneer, an EM, that got revenge on me for all the grief I throw to that genre. Anyway, while there nursing my ego, one of the guys was telling us of his pinball savant ways and how the first pro tournament he ever entered he was paired with Josh Sharpe and proceeded to beat him, or when he scored a 'perfect 12' within 2 years of starting which was unheard of. This guy can easily best me, and has in the past, on most occasions and I respect his ability and often marvel at it. There have been occasions though where I've watched his game fall apart and I get the points over him, and it is sweet. I don't for a minute think to elevate myself, but I take the small victory.

That is ultimately what the prime difference between the official TPA tourneys are and the TotM is. The law of averages is going to have the cream rise to the top every time in TPA. All players like me can hope for is that one freak game that nets us a score 9 times out of 10 we'd never come close to. With TotM, which is based on my league, the law of averages is heavily reduced. A freak score isn't needed because the top players probably won't post their best scores either. The margin between the two is much closer, which gives (maybe falsely) the sense that anyone can win. So even though it won't do me any favors for the TPA tourneys, in order for it to be fun to me I'm just going to do what I mentioned earlier and only play a limited number of times. Otherwise it'll drive me nuts for a week again.

 

[vikingerik]

Whose fun factor has been hurt by the exploits?

Players who think that finding the scoring paths within 20 minutes is more fun and prefer that to be a more significant factor to the tournament than executing them. JPelter and Tann chimed in to that effect. But if your own fun factor isn't affected, then hey, that's great.

Yes, the optimum 20-minute strategy for a table may not be obvious, and we may not have found it yet. Or we might have and then there's no further room for improvement and that does discourage some players. Whether we've reached these optima yet, or will do so within the tournament duration, is certainly an open question. But there does have to exist an endpoint of optimum strategy that can't be further improved.

The rest of the argument seems to be semantics. One obviously can't score as much without CC's 1M bonus bounty as with it, whether or not we call that narrow. Maybe you can make top ten on Space Shuttle without multiball and you'd call that competitive, where I wouldn't. We're agreeing on the principles, just arguing over the vocabulary.

I have a feeling Vikingerik doesn't aim for top 10, but first place.

That's exactly it. If one points to a top 10 result achieved without say Bigfoot as evidence of competitiveness... that's only going to be true so as long as there aren't 10 players like me successfully doing the Bigfoot grinding.

The difference between the camera in TZ and say the bounty in CC is that the camera is a cycle of rewards instead of truly randomized. You can guarantee getting the camera bonus collect even during a 20 minute run.

I think you're probably right that you can guarantee enough Camera trips to get it... but executing that guarantee means wasting too much time shooting robots to light it instead of something more lucrative. If I get the camera collect bonus timed right by happenstance to rescore 400M worth of PB Mania, I'm going to have more time available to score more points elsewhere than someone who has to do more work for that same camera award.

 

[JPelter]

I had a whole big reply typed up but my browser ate it. I'll just condense it and say that due to TPA being inherently extremely easy to make shots on demand for on nearly every table, execution becomes way way less important than it does in real pinball. If you boil a found optimal route down to it you might eventually have people separated entirely by a ball spending too much time in the jets randomly. This is of course unlikely to ever happen, but it demonstrates why I think actually looking for the route is much much more fun than playing that route.

e: Also one of the multitude of reasons I'm not too keen on timed tournaments.

 

[vikingerik]

To sum up: I claim that you don't need to follow one narrow path to get a top 10 score on SpSh, TO, TZ, CC, and Co1812.

I do agree with you on this claim. But this is only true as long as 10 players haven't found and followed the one narrowest fastest scoring path.

Examples: I'm #2 on CC right now. I got one 1M bonus bounty in that game. Now, if the narrow path is just "get one 1M bonus bounty", that just doesn't seem narrow to me, at least when we have plenty of tries. There may be more to the CC path, but I don't know what it is... you need to mention it . Is getting High Noon in the path? Certainly a narrow path must say whether getting High Noon is required, right? How about stacking Showdown with another multiball; is that required?

I'm fairly sure from regular play on CC that the optimum route to the highest score in 20 minutes is to stack Gold Mine + Showdown as soon as possible (about 2 minutes) and then keep it going for the full remaining 18. I've actually done this in regular play. 18 minutes of the combined multiballs scores over 100M from each multiball's jackpots, plus adds about 3M and 60X bonus. With a 1M bonus bounty included, that totals to 440M, which would be the top tournament score. I don't think High Noon can match that speed. Completing all the shots for Stampede and Bart and the Gunfights plus playing High Noon itself takes at least five minutes, but High Noon only totals 70M and change, behind the pace of the stacked multiballs.

However, stacking and maintaining the multiballs for that long obviously isn't easily within the reach of most players. My 320M tournament score included about five minutes of multiball stack, and did include High Noon. High Noon probably is the best achievable path for realistic player skill levels, including even me.

Also note that you have to get one rank advance from a random source - bounty or skill shot. The three Barts give only three Gunfights for ranks so you need one extra to reach Marshal. High Noon scores considerably less (half) without the highest rank. You can't spend time to grind through an extra Bart for a fourth gunfight or you'll lose to someone who gets it for free.

And of course you have to do the whole 20 minutes on one ball. (Is that a narrow path?) No power of mathematics can make two separate bonus intervals produce as many points as one combined interval.

On Co1812 it seems to me like the fastest way to score is chaining leftramps - the sky is the limit on how many you can hit there in 20 minutes.

I feel I've solved Co1812. The fastest scoring is to enable the left ramp million and then alternate ramps (nudge to catch on every feed.) Ramp shots score 100K for each consecutive shot up to 1M, so then you're scoring a million per shot PLUS the left ramp million PLUS 333k of jackpot equity (6 shots = 2M). I've verified that all this does all get credited, although some of the components lag by a few seconds before getting awarded.

To enable the left ramp million, just drain out of multiball and it stays lit until you hit something else on the table that isn't a ramp. Yeah, the fastest method would be to alternate ramps with both balls in multiball, but even I can't do that reliably. But I can alternate ramps for literally 10 minutes straight without missing, for what comes to an all-in average of 1833k per shot and over 10M per minute. And alternate ramps can be shot a bit faster than just the left ramp alone.