Top 5-10 Pinballs every made - Pro talk

[invitro]

I don't think WCS has been mentioned, but it's almost certainly in my top 10, although I have some trouble separating my personal preferences from what's being used in this poll. As a good player, my main problem with it is how hard it is to hit the blasted TV hole.

I know Whirlwind is in my top 10. I don't know if it has any problems.

Any thoughts on F-14? I don't see any problems with it, either.

What about Space Shuttle? Gorgar? Cyclone?

 

[PET3R]

Any thoughts on F-14? I don't see any problems with it, either.

What about Space Shuttle? Gorgar? Cyclone?

The rule set is too simple and game can become quickly repetitive, therefore these tables are not in our top 10. You could otherwise throw in pretty much any EM table.

 

[jonesjb]

Bump. Any more thoughts, it seems that the discussion has dried up? I can't offer any insights on LOTR, Indiana Jones, Metallica or AC/DC. I've played all, but not enough to get an idea of scoring. I know I found AC/DC annoying because of the bell. I tend to not enjoy the newer Sterns as much as the Bally/Williams era. Maybe it's a nostalgia thing.

 

[invitro]

I tend to not enjoy the newer Sterns as much as the Bally/Williams era. Maybe it's a nostalgia thing.

Nope.

 

[PET3R]

Bump. Any more thoughts, it seems that the discussion has dried up?

The problem is, there is hardly anyone joining the discussion. If I don't keep writing, the thread gets stuck. But maybe it is because everyone expected to see some top 5 -10 which is yet nowhere to be seen. I wanted peaceful discussion but maybe I need to generate quickly some top 10 so the discussion get's heated up a bit.

I was not playing very much pinball in the past 2 weeks but it allowed me to notice that every time I had a session I played less and less mode based tables.

Tables I hardly played: TZ, TAF, STTNG, RBION, MB, TOM
Regularly played tables: AFM, MM, CC, CV, WW, SS

I have started to like MM and for the first time I have reached bftk on ios. I actually prefer the wizard on MM compared to AFM. I see MM as a simplified more streamlined AFM version which is actually fun, but from the rule set point of view to me AFM is superior, with not 1 single rule I would change for now.

So here is our top 10 so far:

1. AFM
2. MM
3. TAF
4. MB
5. STTNG

6. TZ
7. CC
8. CV
9. RBION
10.TOM

Now that we have our top 10 I hope discussion will pick up.

 

[invitro]

I actually prefer the wizard on MM compared to AFM. I see MM as a simplified more streamlined AFM version which is actually fun, but from the rule set point of view to me AFM is superior, with not 1 single rule I would change for now.

Well the MM wizard mode is more interesting, because its end with shooting between the trolls is very fun, while the AFM wizard mode is trivial -- I don't think I've ever lost it, in real life or in TPA. But remember that the true wizard mode on AFM is the Victory Laps.

There was a major change in the AFM rules, with the Total Annihilation scoring. It was way too high at first, and ended up being (I think) a little too low. Does anyone know the details on that? If AFM is the ideal game, with great rules, it would be interesting to find out anything that changed to make them great.

I haven't played CC much in real life, but if it plays like the TPA version, well it's great fun but the rules suck, requiring nothing but bonus, as is well known. It doesn't deserve top 10... I wouldn't put it in top 30.

TotAN should be in the top 10, and Whirlwind. Probably Funhouse too. And WCS is lauded by the pros and has gotta be there... if it were in TPA it probably would be. I'd take CV out, and TAF too... getting rooms over and over is so boring. TZ has enough interaction, and a multiball with proper scoring, such that grinding the modes is much less dull. Having more than one way to collect them helps lots.

I'd definitely remove ToM.

My top 10 of 1990-present games (I need to think about older ones more) might be:
1. AFM
2. TZ
3. MB
4. MM
5. TotAN
6. WCS
7. STTNG
8. Shadow
9. WWind
10. Corvette
(There are still many WMS games I've barely played, like JMn and I500.)

 

[kinggo]

The problem is, there is hardly anyone joining the discussion.

So here is our top 10 so far:

1. AFM
2. MM
3. TAF
4. MB
5. STTNG

6. TZ
7. CC
8. CV
9. RBION
10.TOM

Now that we have our top 10 I hope discussion will pick up.

the thing is that no matter how valid the points are about the rules, skills, difficulty....... it all comes down to someone personal preference.

for me, MB is by far the best game ever made because it did everything right. Great rules which allows different strategies yet not to complicated. Great looking game with superb audio part. Easy enough for noobs and complex enough for true players.
AFM before MM? Not for me. Rules are quite similar but audio is better on MM and MM is more difficult. But neither in top 5. Move CV in top 5, more interesting art and way more interesting rules.
RBION on #9????? If Stern did one game right than it is RBION. It doesn't look like some made in china knock off with cheap PS art. Rules are deep enough and you actually have to finish modes if you want to reach Atlantis. OK, you don't, but on the real thing (unlike TPA) one will hardly last long enough to reach Atlantis by finishing only easy modes.
STTNG...... well, they made a game with half blocked view on the outlines. Next please.

 

[Fungi]

The problem is, there is hardly anyone joining the discussion. If I don't keep writing, the thread gets stuck. But maybe it is because everyone expected to see some top 5 -10 which is yet nowhere to be seen. I wanted peaceful discussion but maybe I need to generate quickly some top 10 so the discussion get's heated up a bit.

I was not playing very much pinball in the past 2 weeks but it allowed me to notice that every time I had a session I played less and less mode based tables.

Tables I hardly played: TZ, TAF, STTNG, RBION, MB, TOM
Regularly played tables: AFM, MM, CC, CV, WW, SS

I have started to like MM and for the first time I have reached bftk on ios. I actually prefer the wizard on MM compared to AFM. I see MM as a simplified more streamlined AFM version which is actually fun, but from the rule set point of view to me AFM is superior, with not 1 single rule I would change for now.

So here is our top 10 so far:

1. AFM
2. MM
3. TAF
4. MB
5. STTNG

6. TZ
7. CC
8. CV
9. RBION
10.TOM

Now that we have our top 10 I hope discussion will pick up.

MM way up at number 2? What changed? Who are you? What have you done with the real PET3R?

 

[PET3R]

I haven't played CC much in real life, but if it plays like the TPA version, well it's great fun but the rules suck, requiring nothing but bonus, as is well known. It doesn't deserve top 10... I wouldn't put it in top 30.

TotAN should be in the top 10

I have been looking into CC many times but it seems you can't pull a big bonus on it's own if you did not play a good ball. The strategy seems to be the combination of bonus, good multi-ball (possibly stacking the multi-balls) AND High Noon. Wish someone with more experience would make it clear to me why CC is ranked at No.30
I am aware the scoring is not perfect but to get the high score it encourages you to play high noon on highest rank. To me it belongs to one of the most interesting rule sets out there.

TotAN ? The lamp strategy ? Top 10 ?

 

[PET3R]

the thing is that no matter how valid the points are about the rules, skills, difficulty....... it all comes down to someone personal preference.

Don't forget that the valid points about the rules, skills, difficulty.... can change your personal preference. I used to like TotAN very much and would definitely rank it in top 5 before I realized that it is all about lamp shooting. This is how some players rank the tables. They either don't know the tables and it's weaknesses very well, or they haven't played other tables long enough to be able to properly compare them. Sometimes you need to spend lot of time playing your preferred table before your hype wears off and you realize that actually there is not much to that table and you move on. This is one of the things we are trying to do here. Discuss each table in detail so we understand it well and are able to narrow down our selection. There will always be valid points that almost everyone will agree with. I think almost everyone will agree that magnets in TAF harms the table; that TZ wizard is much better than TAF; required completion of the modes in RBION is much better than being able to time them out in TAF, TAZ and others, lamp scoring of TotAN and bonus in CC harms the tables; the rules set of AFM is much better ballanced and thought compared to High Roller; etc...

 

[PET3R]

MM way up at number 2? What changed? Who are you? What have you done with the real PET3R?

Nothing changed, you just finally got to know me. I am very fair and open minded person, who is trying to do this top 10 right. That's all.

 

[PET3R]

When writing your top 10 can you please explain why did you choose to place the table at that particular position, so that we all can understand better.

1. AFM (probably the best and most interesting rule set out there with very good scoring)

2. MM (not as clear and complex set of rules as AFM with some troll problem, but it shines in many areas: better wizard mode and ramps shots, the game is harder/longer, you move straight from castle to castle, more simple rules).

3. TAF (no pressure in this game, just collecting points and grabbing the opportunities with really great layout and great shots. Magnets hurts the game. I feel the TZ should be here instead but unfortunately I did not give it enough chances yet, as every time I feel to play mode based table I go for TAF as I really prefer the layout (TZ is bit clunky) and the rules that are done in more elegant way.)

4. MB (great set of rules, I dislike the ramp shots which are hard to hit, specially the bride that is needed so much. Wish they were joy to hit just like MM. Hitting the Frank results in drain half of the time. Some modes like the bride needs stacking as they are very difficult to finish on their own. I have reached few wizards but I am still not very good at this table, therefore it ranks bit lower. Need to give it more chance and learn my shots, after that will probably go higher in rating

5. STTNG (I have discussed this a lot before in detail, perfect set of rules that works and rewards good shots and good players. I suck at it at the moment and therefore not finding it as much fun. Because of my personal preference, which should not be here btw, it landed at no.5. I need to learn my shots, give it more chance, then it will most probably go much higher, as I will enjoy it more. For now the game is very difficult for me as there are too many drains.)

6. TZ (As mentioned higher, I need to play it more to get into it, then I expect it to replace the TAF, layout feels clustered, I am missing the open space)

7. CC (I love the rules and mechanics, still trying to figure it out what is wrong with the scoring. I know bonus is at blame but it does not seem to be the only problem)

8. CV (The ringmaster shot feels bit repetitive as this is the only shot you going to concentrate on, as everything else will usually get sorted by it self. Still unsure about the 3 step wizard. Did not find any flaws yet. Need to play more. Might go up or down.)

9. RBION (I did not play this game a lot, so I expect it to go higher once I get into it. The rules are bit to blame as there are many features you don't even need to play. The whole temple mechanic seems like the 1/2 of the game that you don't even care about. The layout is pretty same as TAF but the there is no joy from the shots. Not sure whether it is the TPA implementation of if this is IRL too. Need to play more, will be able to judge better)

10.SS (I know these are more simple rules, but they seem to work perfectly, did not find any flaws yet)

Tables I would love to bring to top 10 but I have no playing experience with: The shadow, Indiana Jones, Metallica, AC/DC, LOTR, SPP

Tables that I did not place in top 10: TotAN (because of lamp importance), WW (because of the 3x Jackpot importance), TOM (Importance of the left ramp and bonus, Modes that are usually being timed out, Random award of Midnight Madness)

 

[vikingerik]

3. TAF (Magnets hurts the game.)

4. MB (great set of rules, I dislike the ramp shots which are hard to hit, specially the bride that is needed so much. Wish they were joy to hit just like MM. Hitting the Frank results in drain half of the time.)

7. CC (I love the rules and mechanics, still trying to figure it out what is wrong with the scoring. I know bonus is at blame but it does not seem to be the only problem)

All of these are judging the games as in TPA rather than the real machine. The magnet isn't nearly as much of a problem on a real TAF. MB's ramps and Frank are just about right on difficulty compared to the real machine; you're comparing TPA MB to other tables in TPA with overly easy ramps and overly easily avoidable drains. CC's bonus isn't a big problem on a real machine, balls don't last long enough for the bonus scoring to go crazy, and also Gold Mine isn't as easy to start repeatedly as you have to raise up the mine entrance for each lock as opposed to TPA letting the ball in immediately every time.

10.SS (I know these are more simple rules, but they seem to work perfectly, did not find any flaws yet)

SS's flaw is the enormous escalation of crate hits required for Crate multiball after the first couple times. It goes as high as 21 hits! That's like an entire game worth of saucers or ringmasters, just for a little two-ball multiball.

 

[Gus]

SS's flaw is the enormous escalation of crate hits required for Crate multiball after the first couple times. It goes as high as 21 hits! That's like an entire game worth of saucers or ringmasters, just for a little two-ball multiball.

While I do agree with you about the crate hit requirements getting crazy, it's not the 'little 2-ball mb' that is interesting - it's the Monster multiball you can get afterwards It's been a long time since I played SS in real life, but I can imagine it's pretty hard to reach the wizard mode (where it's trivial in TPA), especially more than once in the same game. Scoring seems very linear to me, but I'm not a fan of either Elvira table and they're way out of my top 10.

When I play a real table, I focus on the fun stuff more than the scoring tbh. I obviously try to score well, but I'm not trying to find safe shots or avoid risky/fun shots. Table theme, sound, callouts and toys are a big part of a table and what makes a table good (for me), which is supposedly not to be factored in this thread Is it even possible to disregard that? The games listed here mostly have great themes. I don't see anyone rooting for tables like Genie, which has pretty good scoring rules imo

Since I only very rarely play real pinball any more, I think it's actually hard to argue which tables are the best. Even though TPA does a great job, the difference compared to a real table is huge. Many times my RL favourites are disappointing in TPA. I'll throw a few very solid tablenames into the mix anyway and I probably won't be able to disregard the themes

Agree on top 10 tables:
TAF, AFM, MM

Possibly agree on:
TZ, STTNG

Disagree on:
MB, SS, CV, CC, RBION

Other possible top 10 candidates:
Indiana Jones
Whirlwind
Funhouse
BSD
White Water
Demo Man
The Shadow

I've never played a RL Jack*Bot, but it's pretty damn sweet in TPA and seems to have good rules.

 

[jonesjb]

I see others are in agreement on Shadow. I promised a summary for Shadow to Pet3r so here it is (Pet3r I really enjoy your analysis by the way, very thorough and considered)... The thing I like about Shadow is that there are many ways to score points, both on the way to the final battle (wizard mode) and just in normal gameplay (orbits, shadow loops, vengeance, super vengeance, battle for Kahn, Mongols, up to 7x combos, a secret laugh mode), the multiballs (if well played) can bring in 200 million - 500 million), especially if you are able to lock the ball for double/triple jackpots, and hit the super jackpot for 100MM (then x2 or x3); there are four different multiballs in this. The final battle is not required and is difficult to get to, but if you do, the reward is substantial but not overwhelming, and just the equivalent of 2-4X a well played multiball. Multiballs are not difficult to repeat (like with WH20), where you really only get 2 opportunities).

The game is very well thought out, with many nuances, like additional points for hitting all the targets when defeating Khan, or following a Shadow loop from an orbit. There are many ways to play this table to get lots of points, and one doesn't dominate. Someone achieving final battle, can be beaten by someone dominating the vengeance mode (hitting rings and points, and this person can be beaten by someone playing shadow loops, and this person can be beaten by someone ELSE who kicks ass at final battle (it's a paper scissors rock loop). The game is very balanced and has that "one more game" factor.

Scoring aside (I know this is the focus of the topic), in terms gameplay and design...the game boasts some of the best audio in pinball, a stylish, classy art deco design, 5 ball multiball if you can get to wizard mode, gold wireforms, ramps that you can control what flipper they arrive to making the game more interactive, a third flipper with 3-4 possible shots (always a plus in my book), a breakout style mini playfield (IMO even better than TZ's) and one of the coolest lock tricks around. The downside would be the backglass (but there is a alternate translite option). This is Brian Eddy at his best, making old school pinball, without having a central toy dominate the rule set (i.e. AFM and MM - both amazing games and also well deserving to be in the top 10).

Someone on Pinside created a mind map of all of the Shadow gameplay paths. Here it is for reference.https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-shadow-club/page/44#post-2766762

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

That image has been removed by Pinside: " This image got 1 "unsafe" tag and has been hidden automatically."

 

[jonesjb]

That's strange, not unsafe at all... The image was created by swampfire (so credit goes to him). Here it is:

 

[Kolchak357]

I've seen one of these for Congo as well. They are pretty cool.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Now do one for WOZ. I dare you.

 

[invitro]

That's strange, not unsafe at all... The image was created by swampfire (so credit goes to him). Here it is:

That's neat!