TZ: Too easy = fail

[Richard B]

Biggest difficulty problem on TZ is that infidel ring between the lower left jets. I know it was there in the original few machines but it was pulled and the game is better for it. Beyond that the difficulty seems quite accurate to me except MAYBE it could use a little more heat off all the standups (especially the slot one), and the left ramp a bit less of a gimme. But really it feels close, and it screws me the same kinds of ways.

I find that the most major difficulty problem with TPA in general is the conversion of replay scores and specials to extra balls. I always tilt those away -- the games weren't designed for that many extra balls and things start to stack up out of control -- and the games tend to be a lot more satisfying that way.

People who can't make a billion in the real game score 12 billion in the TPA version. That's not accurate difficulty.
The fact they made SS easier shows not only ignorance, but downright contempt. It's famous for being hated by operators due to skilled players being able to play for a long time. Even less skilled players can often complete at least half of the six tales. Getting to the Stiff-O-Meter is not easy, but it's very doable for even an average player. Six full meters in a single game is a travesty.
I know what my question for Bobby will be next round.

 

[Mark W**a]

I know I'm in the minority but I think it's fine. Don't play for a week and it won't be so easy for you. Saying you can get 10x your score on a real TZ isn't saying much because it applies to ALL tables not just tz. And forget 10x how bout 50x that's about what I'm at with digital vs real life scores on Party Monsters and Medieval Madness. And I'm not bad at real life pinball.

 

[Mark W**a]

People who can't make a billion in the real game score 12 billion in the TPA version. That's not accurate difficulty.
The fact they made SS easier shows not only ignorance, but downright contempt. It's famous for being hated by operators due to skilled players being able to play for a long time. Even less skilled players can often complete at least half of the six tales. Getting to the Stiff-O-Meter is not easy, but it's very doable for even an average player. Six full meters in a single game is a travesty.
I know what my question for Bobby will be next round.

Um, what people? There's two people on the leader board with a score that high. There's dudes on Xbox with outrageous scores on every board and I guarentee they all suck in real life pinball.

I understand that some people think the game is too easy and that's fine but what I don't understand is why people are acting like this is a new thing or that its only Twilight Zone and Scared Stiff. With the exception of Cirqus Voiltaire every single table in the game is way easier than real life.

And final point. There are less than 1000 people on the leader boards (good bit less actually) that have a score over a billion. Assuming that they've sold 10,000 units across all platforms that means that less than 10% of players are skilled enough to even complete the wizard mode once. If sales are 20 thousand that number drops to under 5%. It's important to look at the bigger picture and not just us hardcore players. Imagine if you made the table harder your going to alienate 90% of your audience who already find it rough as is. And I know in real life it's closer to 99% of players easy, but pinball arcade isn't meant to replace real pinball it's meant to expand the audience. It was a conscious decision from day 1 and that's why all tables have nerfed difficulty.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

And final point. There are less than 1000 people on the leader boards (good bit less actually) that have a score over a billion. Assuming that they've sold 10,000 units across all platforms that means that less than 10% of players are skilled enough to even complete the wizard mode once. If sales are 20 thousand that number drops to under 5%. It's important to look at the bigger picture and not just us hardcore players. Imagine if you made the table harder your going to alienate 90% of your audience who already find it rough as is. And I know in real life it's closer to 99% of players easy, but pinball arcade isn't meant to replace real pinball it's meant to expand the audience. It was a conscious decision from day 1 and that's why all tables have nerfed difficulty.

In fact, I haven't scored a billion yet, nor gotten to Lost in the Zone (I keep crapping out a couple of door panels short). This is partly because I'm a actually pretty poor pinball player, and probably partly because I'm playing on a small mobile device.

But I also am pretty sure I have more experience of Twilight Zone, the real-life machine, than 95% of people who are going to download TPA.

I can certainly tell that the TPA version of the game is much easier than the real thing. I wouldn't mind it if they removed the barrier from in front of the left outlane and made the shots a little harder. But I also find it a lot of fun as it is, and a credible simulation of Twilight Zone, certainly not some kind of obscene travesty.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Um, what people? There's two people on the leader board with a score that high.

Me, for starters. 13.2B on the PC beta of Twilight Zone, 902M on the real table.

And final point. There are less than 1000 people on the leader boards (good bit less actually) that have a score over a billion. Assuming that they've sold 10,000 units across all platforms that means that less than 10% of players are skilled enough to even complete the wizard mode once. If sales are 20 thousand that number drops to under 5%. It's important to look at the bigger picture and not just us hardcore players. Imagine if you made the table harder your going to alienate 90% of your audience who already find it rough as is. And I know in real life it's closer to 99% of players easy, but pinball arcade isn't meant to replace real pinball it's meant to expand the audience. It was a conscious decision from day 1 and that's why all tables have nerfed difficulty.

Twilight Zone has been out for 13 days on two platforms, both mobile. Many players who generally have skills sufficient for them to reach LITZ, but have never played a TZ before, are probably still figuring out the table (in terms of what shots are "safe", which are dangerous, which modes to play out and which to ignore, etc.). The percentage of players who have reached LITZ will rise significantly in the next few weeks.

It is quite possible to LITZ and not break a billion, especially if you've been prioritizing LITZ over other goals. I've personally come out of LITZ at 656M on the real table.

And please explain to us, following your logic above, why it is acceptable to have a mode like RBION's Atlantis, which I've reached twice in 8 months. If I've only seen it twice in that time, then probably 98-99% of the players will never see Atlantis at all. Yet neither you nor anyone else that I can tell were complaining at the time that RBION's wizard mode was inaccessible to "average" players. So why should average players have a right to reach Lost in the Zone without a lot of practice?

In fact, I haven't scored a billion yet, nor gotten to Lost in the Zone (I keep crapping out a couple of door panels short). This is partly because I'm a actually pretty poor pinball player, and probably partly because I'm playing on a small mobile device.

In fact, here's Exhibit A for my argument above. Matt is likely to LITZ in the near future, despite characterizing himself as a poor player. He just hasn't done so yet. (Good luck, Matt!)

But I also am pretty sure I have more experience of Twilight Zone, the real-life machine, than 95% of people who are going to download TPA.

I can certainly tell that the TPA version of the game is much easier than the real thing. I wouldn't mind it if they removed the barrier from in front of the left outlane and made the shots a little harder. But I also find it a lot of fun as it is, and a credible simulation of Twilight Zone, certainly not some kind of obscene travesty.

While I wish it was more accurate in terms of difficulty, this statement is also true, and we shouldn't lose sight of that in the difficulty wars. TZ is a still a lot of fun, even nerfed.

 

[Mark W**a]

Atlantis is tougher to get too. Ask Pat Lawlor why he designed it that way. Look all I'm saying is, making the game easier was a good idea. You can have a balance of accessibility and fun while still retaining challenge, and I think PBA hits the mark in the regard.

All of us are at the level where we are really good at the game, it's not much challenge for us to conquer a table release overnight. I dunno what to tell you other than maybe enter PAPA and see how you do this year.

So my advice is to just chill out and enjoy it for what it is. And as much as we are all talking about how easy the game is, well why don't you take a step back and watch your sister play. Watch your uncle or dad or mom play this holiday (all of whom have pinball experience... We grew up in the 90s plus owned a pinball! My uncle was grand champ!) and watch them get their asses handed to them on every table, including the omg so easy Twilight Zone. You can rally up support and bug Bobby to change the game but all your really going to end up doing is frustrating the majority audience and pushing them towards something more casual friendly like Zen or Pinball FX. It's a bad idea.

 

[Hinph]

Again... option. We are asking for an option that we will exchange human currency for. There is nothing at all disrespectful about that, and I don't want family, children, elders, or pets to cry.

It's a great idea.

 

[Mark W**a]

We already have that option it's called pro mode. Outside of the very, very , very best virtual pinball players like Sean, or Paralax Scroll, or a small handful of others, would be incredibly hard pressed to pull off multiple LoZ's on extra hard, no extra ball settings.

You're talking about Bobby completely altering the collision mesh and physics just to please a tiny portion of the audience. I mean there comes a point where you need to take a step back and reevaluate what you're asking. If you are that hardcore you're wasting your time. You should be out playing real pinball in real tournaments! Stop wasting time on virtual if you feel this strongly about it!

 

[Jeff Strong]

Atlantis is tougher to get too. Ask Pat Lawlor why he designed it that way. Look all I'm saying is, making the game easier was a good idea. You can have a balance of accessibility and fun while still retaining challenge, and I think PBA hits the mark in the regard.

All of us are at the level where we are really good at the game, it's not much challenge for us to conquer a table release overnight. I dunno what to tell you other than maybe enter PAPA and see how you do this year.

So my advice is to just chill out and enjoy it for what it is. And as much as we are all talking about how easy the game is, well why don't you take a step back and watch your sister play. Watch your uncle or dad or mom play this holiday (all of whom have pinball experience... We grew up in the 90s plus owned a pinball! My uncle was grand champ!) and watch them get their asses handed to them on every table, including the omg so easy Twilight Zone. You can rally up support and bug Bobby to change the game but all your really going to end up doing is frustrating the majority audience and pushing them towards something more casual friendly like Zen or Pinball FX. It's a bad idea.

Again, all we're asking for is a harder option only for those who want it. I don't to see how adding that option will "frustrate" anyone, because no one will be obligated to use it.

 

[Mark W**a]

I'm enjoying this release just as I have all the pinball arcade stuff, as I have been from day 1. When Bobby went on record saying they tweak the games to be easier, some people acted completely shocked and looked at it as if it was blasphemy. Me I said to myself when I read that "well, duh we already knew that". Reaching Battle for the Kingdom in real life is like, epic beyond words doing it on pinball arcade is an average game. So why the outrage, now, over Twilight Zone?

Of course there's nothing wrong with making an optional hard mode but, is that really something that the small team at Farsight needs to be focused on right now? IMO No. How bout bug fixes and more tables, lighting options and an improved user interface. Things that could help them expand the audience not contract it. It's my opinion and well have to agree to disagree.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Atlantis is tougher to get too. Ask Pat Lawlor why he designed it that way. Look all I'm saying is, making the game easier was a good idea. You can have a balance of accessibility and fun while still retaining challenge, and I think PBA hits the mark in the regard.

All of us are at the level where we are really good at the game, it's not much challenge for us to conquer a table release overnight. I dunno what to tell you other than maybe enter PAPA and see how you do this year.

So my advice is to just chill out and enjoy it for what it is. And as much as we are all talking about how easy the game is, well why don't you take a step back and watch your sister play. Watch your uncle or dad or mom play this holiday (all of whom have pinball experience... We grew up in the 90s plus owned a pinball! My uncle was grand champ!) and watch them get their asses handed to them on every table, including the omg so easy Twilight Zone. You can rally up support and bug Bobby to change the game but all your really going to end up doing is frustrating the majority audience and pushing them towards something more casual friendly like Zen or Pinball FX. It's a bad idea.

You didn't answer my question. I know damned well that Atlantis is more difficult to reach on TPA than Lost in the Zone. It took me 4 months to reach Atlantis and less than 4 hours to reach Lost in the Zone. That was a pretty clear indicator of the relative difficulty of the two wizard modes.

My question is that there are wizard modes in the already-existing TPA tables challenging enough that only 1 in 50 players will ever see them and you said nothing about those, so why does my suggestion to have a second entirely optional difficulty setting to restore Twilight Zone to its rightful place in the pinball pantheon vex you so?

You have read my suggestion in the other post, so you already know that I asked FarSight merely to save the collision mesh before the difficulty tuning took place, so that it would inflict minimal additional burden on Bobby or anyone else on the FarSight team. I was a software developer myself once; I'm acutely aware of what additional features cost in terms of programmer person-hours. I would not have made the suggestion if I thought it would have impeded FarSight's ability to develop TPA in other directions as they saw fit.

 

[Mark W**a]

Atlantis is harder to get than LoZ. If they went forward and made a hard mode for all tables, then it would still be harder!

A better question is why do you feel we need a hard mode for TZ but not the other tables? You agree that all the tables in the game are nerfed, no? So why the special treatment for one table?

I follow what you're saying. But it doesn't make sense. Your logic is that because harder Wizard modes exist, that somehow justifies your position that we should tweak twilight zone to be harder. But that logic fails because its singling out TZ to be a special case. That's not fair. If you're going to make a harder mesh for one table then why leave out the others? Because Atlantis is hard, even on digital doesn't justify that position.

 

[Mark W**a]

You do bring up a great point though. And it's given me a rad idea. How about a debug mode that gives us access to the physics tuning? Ohhh that would be fun and (i would assume) cheap and easy to implement, a neat little compromise that would both please you guys, and add some much needed value to the pro mode package.

What do you think about that idea?

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Atlantis is harder to get than LoZ. If they went forward and made a hard mode for all tables, then it would still be harder!

A better question is why do you feel we need a hard mode for TZ but not the other tables? You agree that all the tables in the game are nerfed, no? So why the special treatment for one table?

I follow what you're saying. But it doesn't make sense. Your logic is that because harder Wizard modes exist, that somehow justifies your position that we should tweak twilight zone to be harder. But that logic fails because its singling out TZ to be a special case. That's not fair. If you're going to make a harder mesh for one table then why leave out the others? Because Atlantis is hard, even on digital doesn't justify that position.

Not true. I've been using TZ as an example, yes, because it's more obvious on TZ that the table's been made easier than on some of the others. But in my suggestion post, I mention that each table's "hard mode" could be added at the same time as its Pro Mode to minimize impact on FarSight, and even mention that TOTAN, SS and TZ would have to be revisited at some point (because their Pro Modes have already been implemented). So I've envisioned this as an option for each table, not just TZ.

And yes, I realize this would probably place Atlantis and Battle for the Kingdom beyond the reach of all but the very best players (which group does not include me). That's one of the reasons why I want to keep the existing tables undisturbed.

EDIT: I'm a software engineer, do you really think I could resist tinkering with physics settings if they were made available to me? But I think some of us would still want an "official hard mode" for leaderboard and tournament purposes. (I could care less about that personally, I'm more interested in challenging myself, but I understand the need for competition.)

 

[Mark W**a]

I understand your position, I'm just trying to look at all this as if I were an employee at Farsight and trying to come up with ideas that best serve the product, and the entire audience.

I get you BUT I think personally asking them to specially tune and develop a hard mode for all tables is just asking too much. They are already implementing a 3 ball, hard setting tournament mode, I think that's enough to satisfy most players that are looking for increased challenge.

You say that implementing a harder mesh is simple and not much work, but are you sure about that? This is where your knowledge is beyond my own, I have no idea the semantics as I am NOT a developer.

I would ASSUME a debug mode would be easier to implement, and require less development resources, but I admit I do not know for sure. I can however say with confidence that a mode like that would meet your needs AND provide an increased value proposition for everyone else. It's a win win in my eyes.

Btw Sean go get a damn job at Farsight already

 

[Jeff Strong]

So why the outrage, now, over Twilight Zone?

Because, as Sean said a few times, TZ is one of the hardest pinball machines known to man, and yet it's one of the easiest in TPA.

I'd much rather them focus on this than adding the Pro Menu stuff to every table, but if they were to include this as part of Pro Mode, then I'd definitely buy it.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I understand your position, I'm just trying to look at all this as if I were an employee at Farsight and trying to come up with ideas that best serve the product, and the entire audience.

I get you BUT I think personally asking them to specially tune and develop a hard mode for all tables is just asking too much. They are already implementing a 3 ball, hard setting tournament mode, I think that's enough to satisfy most players that are looking for increased challenge.

You say that implementing a harder mesh is simple and not much work, but are you sure about that? This is where your knowledge is beyond my own, I have no idea the semantics as I am NOT a developer.

If the tuning to correct physics anomalies takes place before the tuning to reduce difficulty, then in between those two steps the collision mesh is already in a "hard" state. So FarSight just needs to save that mesh before they start manipulating it to make things easier.

If they had to build a new mesh from scratch, yes, that would be too much work. But the "hard" mesh should already exist at some point in the existing process; it's just a matter of preserving it.

Btw Sean go get a damn job at Farsight already

If they need a remote software engineer based out of St Louis, they know how to find me.

 

[Fungi]

It seems to me that the trick to making TZ just a bit harder would be to tweek just 2 things. One, make the ramps shots require a little more oomph to get up. Two, remove the little rubber bands in Townsquare.

I personally hate powerdrains so I love those little rubber bands there. Kinda the reason I hate CV so much. Powerdrains.

 

[brakel]

I understand your position, I'm just trying to look at all this as if I were an employee at Farsight and trying to come up with ideas that best serve the product, and the entire audience.

But why? Why not just let FarSight do that? I understand asking a few questions about it but its like you're taking this on as your personal mission to shoot down the idea.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

In fact, here's Exhibit A for my argument above. Matt is likely to LITZ in the near future, despite characterizing himself as a poor player. He just hasn't done so yet. (Good luck, Matt!)

In fact, I did so several hours after your post. Nice wizard mode.

(I do think the claims that newbies are LITZ-ing immediately after encountering the game are exaggerated: they may be newbies to Twilight Zone but they're probably pretty experienced at pinball, or at least video pinball. Getting LITZ even in TPA's Twilight Zone is not as hard as on the real table, but it's far from trivial, and I do think it's still harder to get to than, say, the genie battle in ToTAN or Grand Finale in Theatre of Magic.)