Why are new machines nearly twice what they were before the industry crash?

[Richard B]

Pat Lawlor said that real pinball's days are numbered due to the high cost of production, which makes it no longer viable for establishments to recoup the cost of the machine. However, they didn't always cost that much. A new Stern costs between 5-6k for the pro model, add another 2 grand for the premium version. A new WOZ is around $6500 for the standard, not sure how much for the deluxe, but I bet it's a bundle. Meanwhile, a B/W in the '90s topped out at $3,000. Inflation hasn't gone up that much. Why does it cost so much more today?

 

[Dutch Pinball ball]

Because they dont want poor peasents like me to play pinball on their machines.


You can buy 2 good cars for that money. Its just insain.

 

[Gord Lacey]

There are fixed costs associated with developing a table - artwork costs, production costs, designing the table. Those costs are the same whether you make 1, or 10,000. If you look at the numbers of tables made years ago you'll see they've decreased the numbers they release now, so the prices of the current tables have to be higher to cover the fixed costs.

 

[jrolson]

Those prices are crazy! Glad we have TPA as an alternative...

 

[Kolchak357]

There are fixed costs associated with developing a table - artwork costs, production costs, designing the table. Those costs are the same whether you make 1, or 10,000. If you look at the numbers of tables made years ago you'll see they've decreased the numbers they release now, so the prices of the current tables have to be higher to cover the fixed costs.

Exactly right. Fewer and fewer machines are purchased to be routed. As such most buyers are collectors, and there just aren't that many collectors that can afford a new in box for $6,500. Many collectors would prefer two or three preowned pins than 1 new. And as Gord said, Stern has to cover fixed costs. And let's not forget the license costs, as Stern has been doing mostly big ticket licensed tables. Sadly economics makes that high price necessary.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Also keep in mind that manufacturers were exiting the pinball industry in the late 90s because it wasn't profitable. So you could reasonably argue that they needed to charge more than $3000 per table back then. Because they couldn't (because arcade operators would not buy tables at a higher price, as collections were already down to the point where they were barely covering maintenance costs), they left the business.

I don't think the Sterns are as well-made as the 90s Williams tables, either. They've always felt lighter and more "plasticky" to me. Can't point to any hard evidence; it's just a feeling I get when I go from something like Whitewater (Williams 1993) to something like Spiderman (Stern 2007).

 

[Chris Dunman]

I think you're right on the money there Seren. Looking at the build quality of TAF, TZ and earlier, real effort and craftsmanship went in there. Real thinking behind where the ball has to go to pull of skilled elements of the game and so on.

I watched a video of a chap unwrapping a brand spanking new transformers table which was a whack the ball up the ramps affair with a couple of plastic toys stuck on for good measure.

I really prefer the older tables from Williams and Bally. Delightfully thought out. Good themes. Fun and addictive play. Beautiful artwork, decent interactive toys et al.

All this costs, and costs big. Is it worth the cost? Ask the owners. I'd say yes.

 

[SuperGrafx]

While I think the cost of a new machine is somewhat prohibitive at the moment, who knows though.
It seems that pinball is enjoying somewhat of a resurgence lately as a result of Stern's last few releases, TPA, and other companies like Jersey Jack coming into the scene. Perhaps the prices will drop a bit if demand picks up.

All I can say is, there's nothing more exciting than walking into an arcade and seeing the last few Stern releases on display. So shiny and new! Kind of like the feeling I got back as a youth while wandering into an arcade in search of the latest/greatest coin op games.

 

[shutyertrap]

I think Stern is kinda caught in a catch-22 right with their machines. They wanted only licensed tables because that would attract sales, but cost of the license reduces profits so now you have to charge more for the table!

Also, how many tables does Stern even produce of a particular title? Is it even 3000? I do think it sucks that there are actual different play elements between their 2 models. One thing to put in better lights and more metal, but to completely leave out a table element (I heard that was the case with AC/DC, is it like that on other tables? Am I getting worked up over nothing?) that cannot be added later sucks.

Man, if I'd have known the things I know now back in the early 90's...I'd have bought a bunch of houses and dumped them in 2003, and I'd have scooped up a bunch of tables to be sure!

 

[superballs]

In a way, I would like to see the older style tables come back. Maybe a few ramps here and there, but bring back the wood railed joys.

With today's technology mixed into them they could have really fun rulesets, tell a little story and still just have a simple and fun playfield. Bring back the drop target, but at the same time, add in things like the Vari-Target from RBIoN and other things they didn't have available to them when they were making early EMs.

I'm not trying to say bring it back to the stone age of pinball...but it couldn't hurt to simplify a bit. I dare anyone to play Eight Ball Deluxe, take the time to rack up a high score and tell me that it's not a fun and challenging table.

I also challenge everyone to try Bob5453's The Beatles table at VP forums to see exactly what I mean regarding mixing old and new as I've felt for a long time that that is where I would like to see pinball go...I think then (minus the licensing required to sell that particular table) the cost of production would drop to the point where having a pinball table in your home is a lot more viable.

Pinball collecting is kind of an elite thing. There are more afficionados than there are collectors. I would buy an old EM if it still works and enjoy playing it. I would buy a new EM-like or early SS-like table too if it has an interesting premise.

I also lament the reliance on known licenses.

 

[Richard B]

One positive development is the P3 system. People marveled at the playfield screen's ball tracking ability, but overlooked what might be an even more significant development - since the screen is embedded in the playfield, they had to make the mechanics sit on top of it, so they designed a way for the flippers and sling shots to be totally above ground. They also said this is possible for bumpers and theoretically every other object (except probably sinkholes) could be made above ground with simplified mechanics, which might eventually mean lower costs.
There's also that company that made that Big Melons game. True, it was an EM, but at $600 brand new, it's definitely affordable, and stands a good chance of recouping its cost in a public setting.

 

[pseudokings]

A few points:

1. Pat Lawlor got out in 2008. Designer's money is based at least in part on sales numbers, so while he might know of what he speaks, he probably knows of it prior to this recent uptick in interest in pinball, and he's (obviously, like anyone) more worried about his pocketbook than the industry. Love his games, but Steve Ritchie or John Borg would be more credible on the state of the industry at the moment, as they still design games for it. Also, I never like to here anyone prematurely calling for the demise of an industry they claim to love, especially when it's showing increased signs of life.

2. I love the Bally/Williams games (especially 1988-1998) as much as the next guy, but it is worth noting that the most popular ones do have essentially the same design concepts behind them as the recent Sterns. Shot the ramps, and "shoot the big cool toy/target". This is what you do in "modern" pinball. No one turns to their friend and says, "I hit the pop bumpers!"

3. I will agree that I don't like a game more because it is based on a license. But the general public does. They really do. They need something more than just "hey, a new pinball machine" to attach themselves to. Stern probably sells a lot of pins to idiots who want a "well rounded" "boom-boom room". Makes me sick, but there are a lot of fools out there with more money than brains, and a "man cave" that has a pool table, a Virtuacade (or whatever those things are called), and a pinball machine, that don't really care about pinball, they just want the room to look cool to their idiot friends.

I also don't like a game any less because it based on a license. Besides, lets not over romanticize the "original" tables, as several of them are so like something that they couldn't license, but thought would be a good theme. Strange Science? Hollywood Heat? No Good Gofers? Grand Lizard? Not saying those are the best games ever, I'm saying you can tell what they wanted to license, but couldn't. And a good percentage of the best tables are licensed, even from Bally/Williams. Addams. Indy. Monster Bash. Scared Stiff. TZ. STTNG. Creature. Judge Dredd. Indy 500. Shadow. WCS94.

I want a well thought-out theme with good art that uses the ideas associated with the theme to their best potential. That's it.

4. I respectfully disagree that simplifying new games would be a good thing. That casual customer with too much money, wants a lot of stuff to look at. He wants a spectacle. And so do I. I want there to be tons of shots, ramps, and stuff to do. And younger kids who play video games religiously who might have a fledgling interest in pinball aren't going to have their interest sustained by three pops, a loop, a couple sets of stationary targets, and maybe a ramp. They just won't. I don't know what chance there is of interesting them in the super complicated pins like X-Men, but I know it is higher than the chances of interesting them in 8-Ball Deluxe, no matter how beloved it is on this board. Even Addams Family might feel like the stone age to kids who've grown up playing Halo.

5. WOZ is now $7000 Standard (but you could have got one for $6000 or $6500 during earlier preorder windows). $7500 for the Emerald City LE, but it is pre-soldout from JJP, so you'd have to find one from a 3rd party. Every sign points to it being even better made than the Bally/Williams of old. Should feel very sturdy. I hope they are massively successful, and I don't think the thing is overpriced at all. If Bally Williams existed today, their new games would be at least $5500. No doubt. And look again, folks, there have been a great deal of entertainment inflation since 1998. Been to the movies lately? What did that cost in 1998? You have to compare like things.

6. Stern games do feel lighter. More "plasticy". But I could care less as long as it doesn't break down any more often and it plays well. Iron Man is pretty cool. Batman (DK) is pretty cool. Spider-Man is an all-time great game, so is LOTR. T3 is the most underrated game there is. Pirates is a great game, if in proper working order, and the stars are aligned in your favor. Monopoly is way underrated. Tron Legacy LE is the coolest looking thing in the world. X-Men looks like the most complicated game ever made, shots/modes/options wise, which I'm saying is a good thing (though I hear the first versions software is busted). AC/DC LE is excellent. Okay, so I know a few of them are notorious for breaking down (Pirates, Simpsons), but there are some Bally/Williams you can say they same thing about, including the much revered TZ. I also don't begrudge them their MSRPs. I just wish I could afford them. And that they'd cutout the lame Pro versions, and make more of the LE's that are so obviously they way the designers intended the games to really be.

Of course I want to see them up their game. I'm hoping that JJP's WOZ will force them too. But I've played a good percentage of the great games, and the Sterns are not automatically removed from that conversation, just because they are Sterns.

For all the hate that seems to get sent their way, and yes, some of it is deserved, but remember this: Who else was even keeping real pinball alive from 1999-Whenever JJP finally gets WOZ out the door, as anything more than an a one-off/limited run hobby?

-Lastly, no, I don't work for any of these companies, but I dig pinball for PINBALL. Not for nostalgia. Not to be able to say "I've got something you don't have". But just for the love of the game where "the ball is wild." Same reason I love TPA. Same reason I hope they really continue to work on the physics, hit detection, and etc. to make it as much a simulation as possible. Oh, and I hope I didn't offend anyone, as that was not my intention.

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

I just heard Gary Stern speak at the CAX a couple of months ago, and the way he explains it, it's not the licenses that are creating the high cost, it's mostly the low production numbers, and even lower domestic sales. He said that most of the bulk of pinball tables made get sold overseas, and that it's harder to sell sight unseen to the foreign distributors unless it's a recognizable/successful theme. He also went on to explain the three legs of their customer base- operators, collectors, and the extremely wealthy. Their philosophy is that with each new table there should be a tier of pricing to please everyone. Meaning, you can't put out an expensive deluxe table and expect operators to buy them and hope they make all that extra money back. And on the other hand it wouldn't be wise to put out an economy/lackluster table that doesn't appeal to collectors. So hence the two to three different models are a safe bet. Again, I wish it weren't so, but the way he explained their business model, it really does make sense. I know pinball is becoming popular again, and hopefully now with Jeresy Jack in the picture, there will be some new interesting themes coming out in the next few years, but unless there is a way to sell more than a few thousand units, the prices will always be really high, which is why the home use market is so small, if not mostly limited to collectors.
With that said, I think the new Stern tables (along with TPA) are the perfect way to get new/younger players interested in pinball again. And with the growing PAPA events, competitive pinball has never seemed cooler. But unless more arcades or on location sites buy a lot more new pinball machines, they are always going to be manufactured in smaller/financially less risky batches.
I personally wish Stern and Jersey Jack would also issue a DIY kit version of each table (like the new John Popaduik tables he's making with Ben Heck), so that you can save a ton on the cost by building it yourself. Which is I think how they sold that Whoa Nellie! Big Juicy Melons- as a conversion kit.
The P3 system is still pretty pricey considering you're purchasing a table without a game or software- Maybe it's just a little too DIY for me- I can see a build it yourself kit with a finished game being fun, but develop your own game and coding doesn't seem like as much fun to me.

 

[Richard B]

The P3 system is intended to be licensed to manufacturers. What is neat about it is that having everything above ground, and using fewer parts, could lead to cheaper production costs.

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

I think I just posted at the same time as you Pseudokings. You make lots of excellent points, however, I do not discredit Pat Lawlor simply because he hasn't been in the pinball game as recently. I think Pat Lawlor's astute observations are just as valid now as they were when he last worked in pinball. As Pat says, art making a successful design is that you've got to please everyone- the player, the operator, and the executives who don't want to spend a penny more than they have to, while making sure they still sell off all units at a profit. If Pinball isn't profitable, it will cease to exist. I know that sounds like common sense, but again, with arcades almost extinct and on site locations like bars & pizza joints not buying, the units they do sell are mostly to a small niche market. Again, it's great to see so many people taking a new or renewed interest in pinball, but it just doesn't look like the presence of pinball in public places will ever be as ubiquitous they were back in the 80's and 90s.

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

The P3 system is intended to be licensed to manufacturers. What is neat about it is that having everything above ground, and using fewer parts, could lead to cheaper production costs.

The first P3s to go on sale will be 250 special edition models at a price of $9,995!
I read that it will have a serial switch board, which makes the wiring less complex and probably easier to service, but I don't see how that translates directly to "could lead to cheaper production costs"
And even though they're working on software that you can implement, that price doesn't include the cost of developing the theme, or specific content for the LCD screen.
With that said, I'd be interested to see the P3 in person, but from the photos and videos, as of right now it lacks any wow factor for me, even if I squint my eyes and try to imagine it as a fully fleshed out game on top of it.

 

[shutyertrap]

I'd never actually visited Stern's site until just now. I'm impressed with how many games they've actually produced! Somewhere along the line I stopped paying attention (probably Sopranos) and am surprised at some of the things I saw. I never even knew they did an NBA game, and it looks like fun! Anyways, I'm just thankful somebody is keeping the torch alive, it's just a shame very few can actually afford it.

 

[Richard B]

A few points:

Pat Lawlor got out in 2008. Designer's money is based at least in part on sales numbers, so while he might know of what he speaks, he probably knows of it prior to this recent uptick in interest in pinball, and he's (obviously, like anyone) more worried about his pocketbook than the industry.

What is Pat doing now that is so much better on his pocketbook?

 

[Kolchak357]

The P3 system is intended to be licensed to manufacturers. What is neat about it is that having everything above ground, and using fewer parts, could lead to cheaper production costs.

I hope this takes off. I assume this wold make them much easier to service. Servicing a machine is what has always kept me from owning one.

 

[Fuseball]

I hope this takes off. I assume this wold make them much easier to service. Servicing a machine is what has always kept me from owning one.

The only part of a pinball that is difficult to fix is the circuit boards. If you find a working game you love at a good price don't let the servicing stop you from getting it. It's really not too tough to learn how all the mechanical stuff works and there's a whole load of help available online for anything you don't understand. I knew nothing when I started out and I was taking games apart in no time at all! It also helps that the Bally/Williams service manuals are excellent and comprehensive.