Why are new machines nearly twice what they were before the industry crash?

[Richard B]

I hope this takes off. I assume this wold make them much easier to service. Servicing a machine is what has always kept me from owning one.

One of the biggest reasons machines are so expensive is that, from what I have heard, have more components, and take more man hours to build, than cars do. They also have to largely be assembled by hand. With machines that use fewer components, with less wire harnessing and other difficult tasks, this process could be simplified, or made largely (if not entirely) automated. If they can manage that, it will make machines more viable for location owners, as well as give opportunities to pinball fans who aren't wealthy to own their own machines. Whether it's P3, or another method, if real pinball is to experience a true revival, or even survive at all, the manufacturing costs must come down.

 

[shutyertrap]

Based off that video for P3, I'd seriously have to reserve my judgements until I got my hands on one. For now it looks like a TV with hospital equipment on top. Too much plastic. As for the two games they showed, it may as well have been pinball fruit ninja, as all you were doing was shooting the ball over the top of the targets. I know, it's all tech demo right now, and that's why I'd have to wait. For now though, I'm unimpressed.

 

[pseudokings]

I'd never actually visited Stern's site until just now. I'm impressed with how many games they've actually produced! Somewhere along the line I stopped paying attention (probably Sopranos) and am surprised at some of the things I saw. I never even knew they did an NBA game, and it looks like fun! Anyways, I'm just thankful somebody is keeping the torch alive, it's just a shame very few can actually afford it.

NBA, which I agree looks like it might be kinda fun, is derived from the Space Jam table they did as SEGA Pinball back in 1997. Not identical, but it's really obvious that they started with Space Jam and went form there. Not a diss on either table, as I have not played them, and they both look like some fun might be able to be had, just an observation I though you might not have realized.

pinside: NBA - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/nba/gallery
pinside: Space Jam - http://pinside.com/pinball/archive/space-jam/gallery

 

[Animator_pin_fan]

Based off that video for P3, I'd seriously have to reserve my judgements until I got my hands on one. For now it looks like a TV with hospital equipment on top. Too much plastic. As for the two games they showed, it may as well have been pinball fruit ninja, as all you were doing was shooting the ball over the top of the targets. I know, it's all tech demo right now, and that's why I'd have to wait. For now though, I'm unimpressed.

Ditto...
And for me part of the appeal of pinball is that it IS HAND MADE in the USA! Unlike your iPhone or iPad which is actually hand assembled in China.

 

[pseudokings]

I think I just posted at the same time as you Pseudokings. You make lots of excellent points, however, I do not discredit Pat Lawlor simply because he hasn't been in the pinball game as recently. I think Pat Lawlor's astute observations are just as valid now as they were when he last worked in pinball. As Pat says, art making a successful design is that you've got to please everyone- the player, the operator, and the executives who don't want to spend a penny more than they have to, while making sure they still sell off all units at a profit. If Pinball isn't profitable, it will cease to exist. I know that sounds like common sense, but again, with arcades almost extinct and on site locations like bars & pizza joints not buying, the units they do sell are mostly to a small niche market. Again, it's great to see so many people taking a new or renewed interest in pinball, but it just doesn't look like the presence of pinball in public places will ever be as ubiquitous they were back in the 80's and 90s.

Obviously if it isn't profitable pinball won't continue to exist beyond the hobbyist level, and I'm not discrediting Lawlor, I'm just saying it's easier to comment from the sidelines, than it is to try and help save/bring back the industry. And no, pins will never be as ubiquitous as they once were, and I think that's terrible, as I'm sure everyone on here does, but they don't have to be to survive on a level where they are still a valid business and hobby. And I wouldn't count out seeing more of them in coming years than in recent. Sometimes people have to miss something long enough to realize they want it back, and a cultural backlash to the isolation, and kiddie-pool level of social interaction that goes along with the cellphone/internet age would not shock me either. Seriously, text messages and tweets and even message boards for games you dig, are no replacement for going out and having fun with your friends/family. Everybody knows this on some level. Playing a real pin will always be better than playing one on your iPad. Lastly, RECESSION. More people will feel like splurging on a pin for their home or business when more people feel like they can spend the money without it feeling so risky. The US economy is rebounding (Europe no so much), slower than anyone would like, but it is, the problem is this was no ordinary recession and it's going to take a long time to undo all the damage that was done. Nostalgia always holds the strongest draw in hard times, which might be responsible for the uptick in interest in pinball (real and digital) lately, and hopefully Stern, JJP, and whoever else is trying to get into the game can survive until the sun is shining again and maybe they'll find a solidly increased customer base if they do. Maybe a little too optimistic, but a world without somebody making new pins would suck, hard, so I'm choosing to be a little hopeful. We shall see.

 

[shutyertrap]

Nostalgia always holds the strongest draw in hard times, which might be responsible for the uptick in interest in pinball (real and digital) lately, and hopefully Stern, JJP, and whoever else is trying to get into the game can survive until the sun is shining again and maybe they'll find a solidly increased customer base if they do.

I agree about the nostalgia part, now if only there were arcades to play the damn things! These collectors that have 20+ tables, they need to put 'em in a small space and open on the weekends so people can actually play. Quit hoarding them in your house! Share the wealth! Running it that way, you're gonna get customers that actually respect the tables and won't be spilling drinks and trying to jimmy open the coin doors. Shoot, Stern should open up official arcades around the country, staffed with at least one person that can do maintenance, stocked with nothing but their machines. If that doesn't attract more customers, I'd be shocked.

I have a whole 'history' of the comeback of pinball outlined in my head as a piece of fan fiction. The humble beginnings of someone sharing the 6 tables they had and how it grew into a franchise of successful arcades, ultimately having Williams open up their doors again. Maybe I'll write it down and share it with you guys. All I know is I was slobbering in the fantasy of it for 2 weeks!

 

[Carl Spiby]

You'd think they'd figure out they'd sell more if they were non-licensed tables at a lesser price.

What's stopping them doing new runs on old tables?

 

[shutyertrap]

You'd think they'd figure out they'd sell more if they were non-licensed tables at a lesser price.

What's stopping them doing new runs on old tables?

I've wondered that too. It'd probably piss collectors off. I just think about how all those computer boards can now be reduced to but a few to run an older table, how modern CNC machines and injector molds could probably reduce manufacturing costs. New 'old' tables could be easily distinguishable from the originals in that respect. Make everything with a standard DMD display even if all it's doing is showing alpha numerics. As much parts wise that can be standardized, even if it doesn't quite match in looks what the original was, who cares if the gameplay matches.

To me it could be like what Dan Chuck does for classic Camaros and '55-'57 Chevy's. They manufacture replacement parts for those cars to the point you can build the entire car from their parts, all you need is the frame.

 

[superballs]

One positive development is the P3 system. People marveled at the playfield screen's ball tracking ability, but overlooked what might be an even more significant development - since the screen is embedded in the playfield, they had to make the mechanics sit on top of it, so they designed a way for the flippers and sling shots to be totally above ground. They also said this is possible for bumpers and theoretically every other object (except probably sinkholes) could be made above ground with simplified mechanics, which might eventually mean lower costs.
There's also that company that made that Big Melons game. True, it was an EM, but at $600 brand new, it's definitely affordable, and stands a good chance of recouping its cost in a public setting.

This is very exciting. I've been wishing to see this as an affordable option for home use and maybe even the bar game scene for a bit now. I mean it's simple and cost effective, and by george it's pinball.

 

[Mark W**a]

One thing I want to add and then discuss something that sorta relates.

Taking inflation into account, the machines actually cost about the same, or close to it. The issues with costs have been discussed already.

Arcades started dying out in the late 90's and were virtually gone by 2001/2002. I think it's the emergence of the collectors market that is in part to thank for pinballs survival, and if Stern can make extra cash off of LE models, I say all the power to them.

My sister runs a successful Wedding Invitation company that she started from scratch, and I have a degree in Marketing. Both of us got into this big long discussion about how great arcades used to be and what exactly happened to cause them to die off the way they did. We were reminiscing about how pinball and arcade machines were everywhere. Pizza Parlors, bars, theme parks, malls. And the arcade was like the place to hang out as a teenager. We wonder what the hell kids are doing these days, where are the hangout spots? We talked about ideas in how we could try to make a successful arcade business work in 2012.

Everyone is pretty aware of the arcade crash... and it's not just a "pinball crash", it was an arcade game crash too. Sega the former kings of the arcade, their arcade business is smaller than Sterns Pinball business, and it's basically based on what's left of the Japanese market.. I think they released Rambo and a few other machines in the last few years to the US... anyways, I'm getting off on a tangent here.

Why were arcades so big in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, yet today they are extinct? Has anyone really come up with an answer for that? I always hear that it was home video game systems that killed the arcades, but I simply don't believe that because arcades started dying in the Nintendo 64 days, so I just never bought that explanation.

Anyways this post is coming off a little all over the place. Bottom line, we were talking about how Dave N Busters is basically the only "working" business model left in the US for the arcade business... but, obviously, it's a combination of food, alcahol, pool tables and not just video games that makes Dave N Busters work. But my sister and I both pointed out that DnB is not for kids. In fact I'm pretty sure you have to be 21 to even get in.

So there is, currently, no arcade business in the US that caters to teens and children. Period. With all of us who grew up with arcades and have a passion for it, it kind of makes you wonder if there is just a huge untapped market here ready for a serious resurgence, and people with a passion for arcades and the finances to make it a reality. Hmmm... A re-emergence of arcades would be the shot in the arm Pinball needs to make a comeback. What do you guys think?

--Also fake edit-- isn't it kind of strange that DnB has zero pinball machines? What's with that? Paging sterns marketing department...

 

[shutyertrap]

Follow this train of thought...

When I was a kid (70's, 80's) parents didn't think twice about letting you run around outside with no parental supervision. You went to the mall, parents said to meet back up in 2 hours, gave you $10, and off you went. They didn't care what you did, so long as you didn't get in trouble and were back at the time set. See a movie, eat food, or hit the arcade, life was good.

Flash forward to today. Parents don't let their kids outta their sight for fear of some evil befalling them. I have a 6 (almost 7) year old, and you would have thought I was damaging my kid for life when I let him use the public restroom at the mall without going in with him. When he wants to play outside with friends, a parent always has to be out. And I live in a nice tract housing on a cul-de-sac! All the moms are so freaked out about kids getting abducted or having drugs sold to them, or whatever, so the only freedom they have in this day and age is playing vid games online in the safety of the house.

I have a hard time blaming consoles for killing the arcade, mainly because the game played today are not designed as quarter munchers, but long form stories. How kids interact socially is just so different then when arcades were big, and they have zero interest in the older game style that was all about learning patterns and memorizing enemy patterns.

So does any of that make a lick of sense?

My personal theory is retro will start to become cool to kids in 5 or 10 years from now. If you could build a nice arcade that was nothing but pinball, something completely foreign yet appealing to an all digital kid, I think a resurgence would be possible. Or I might be living in fantasy land. But I know my 6 year old was fascinated by all the tables at PHOF in Vegas, because he likes mechanical things and the fact he could interact with it was even better.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

Arcades that cater to kids actually do exist and thrive today, but they don't have pinball. They're full of redemption ticket games and crane games, and are usually attached to bouncy-castle places or laser-tag emporia. Often there are a few modern driving games, and video redemption games like Fruit Ninja.

I think that part of it is simple economics. As I said in the other thread, old arcade machines cost more to play than you might think: a quarter around 1980 had roughly the buying power of 75 cents today. And those old pinballs and early videogames really ate quarters fast.

What, today, eats quarters at that speed? Redemption-ticket machines. Kids are willing to keep feeding them because there's this nominal quasi-payout involved, just like people playing dollar slots in Vegas. Pinballs don't, because while they may be 50 or 75 cents, the more modern pinballs give you much longer ball times, and the complex machines are also more expensive to maintain.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

...Also, note, since they have bouncy castles or climbing structures or something, they can generally charge admission; the arcade is a secondary attraction. It's not pulling kids in from the shopping mall just to play Defender.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

I think that part of it is simple economics. As I said in the other thread, old arcade machines cost more to play than you might think: a quarter around 1980 had roughly the buying power of 75 cents today. And those old pinballs and early videogames really ate quarters fast.

You know, it's even worse than I thought. Inflation was tremendous during the 1970s, and I think pinball already cost a quarter a play near the beginning of the decade, which would have been well over a dollar in today's money. Without jacking up the price, arcade owners would have had to run as hard as they could just to stay in the same place.

Edited to add: Hmm, old newsgroup discussions suggest that most machines were 2 plays for a quarter until solid-state came along, which would make more sense.

 

[Kolchak357]

You'd think they'd figure out they'd sell more if they were non-licensed tables at a lesser price.

What's stopping them doing new runs on old tables?

Like most people I can't just shell out the money a new pin costs. But if they did a run of new Addams Family tables, I'd find a way to get the money. I assume they would even be more reliable and easier to maintain than something 20 years old too.

 

[Mark W**a]

Follow this train of thought...

When I was a kid (70's, 80's) parents didn't think twice about letting you run around outside with no parental supervision. You went to the mall, parents said to meet back up in 2 hours, gave you $10, and off you went. They didn't care what you did, so long as you didn't get in trouble and were back at the time set. See a movie, eat food, or hit the arcade, life was good.

Flash forward to today. Parents don't let their kids outta their sight for fear of some evil befalling them. I have a 6 (almost 7) year old, and you would have thought I was damaging my kid for life when I let him use the public restroom at the mall without going in with him. When he wants to play outside with friends, a parent always has to be out. And I live in a nice tract housing on a cul-de-sac! All the moms are so freaked out about kids getting abducted or having drugs sold to them, or whatever, so the only freedom they have in this day and age is playing vid games online in the safety of the house.

I have a hard time blaming consoles for killing the arcade, mainly because the game played today are not designed as quarter munchers, but long form stories. How kids interact socially is just so different then when arcades were big, and they have zero interest in the older game style that was all about learning patterns and memorizing enemy patterns.

So does any of that make a lick of sense?

My personal theory is retro will start to become cool to kids in 5 or 10 years from now. If you could build a nice arcade that was nothing but pinball, something completely foreign yet appealing to an all digital kid, I think a resurgence would be possible. Or I might be living in fantasy land. But I know my 6 year old was fascinated by all the tables at PHOF in Vegas, because he likes mechanical things and the fact he could interact with it was even better.

That makes PERFECT sense, and that's exactly one of the issues me and my sister discussed. One of the ideas we were throwing around is some kind of way to make parents see "our arcade" as a safe haven for kids. I actually thought having 2 or 3 people on the floor looking after kids, not interfering with their fun but I mean like, watching out for shady adults and stuff and shady activity. But also some how make this place "cool" for young teens as well. And I even want to have a section for adults to chill and play Pinball, with it not being too intimidating for kids to play to. There's a lot to go into this to make it "work".

I'm not a parent yet but man, that's lame. When we were growing up there was always that kid with the over protective parents that wasn't allowed to do certain stuff, and we always felt sorry for that kid. Now I guess that's the norm. That's a real shame. I blame 24 hour news cycles. Murder, crime, drug use, child abduction, all down yet you wouldn't know that if you watch a lot of TV. Hence why I don't watch a lot of tv.

 

[BonzoGonzo]

Murder, crime, drug use, child abduction

hey you just mentioned the hottest topics that attract more views/readers/audiences, which in turn means more exposure for commercials, which means more interest from bigshot companys that pay you to advertise their stuff, which means you get to profit big time by spouting out complete crap as long there is a 'market' for it...

ah, the beatuy of capitalism

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

All of marketing can be boiled down to two words: sex and fear. Granted, there's a lot that can be done with those two subjects, just as a lot can be done with a pair of flippers and a plunger, but that's essentially what all advertising comes down to in the end.

[RANT] Regarding overprotective parenting, these are also the same parents that let their kids run around loose in restaurants and such. (I once got kicked in the back of the head by a child fighting in the booth behind me.) Then they wonder why little Johnny becomes an unholy terror of a teenager while at the same time being easily led into all the temptations his parents thought they were protecting him from. The world needs to get a few hard knocks in on children while they are young, or else it starts taking decapitating swings later on. [/RANT]

More on topic: I understand they're making marvelous advances in 3D printing these days. Might it be possible that some day we would be able to order a kit with cabinet/displays/circuit boards/etc. and schematics for a pinball machine from a Stern or somewhere, print out the mechanical parts, and build the machine ourselves? From what I understand, a lot of the cost of a table is the labor involved in assembling it, but I bet a lot of people with more time than money would be happy to build their own machine. Art would be an issue, as well as the variety of materials involved, but it seems at least initially plausible.

 

[BonzoGonzo]

All of marketing can be boiled down to two words: sex and fear.

damn, forgot about boobies

 

[DooMStalK]

I also agree pinball machines are way expensive. But, as others already pointed out, I believe the price is more or less balanced to how it was years ago, if you consider inflation and other variables.

Actually the "other variables" are the big concern for pricing tables nowadays. I don't know how many tables Stern sells today, but I guess it is much less than companies did back in the 90s, 80s... and that reflects on price too for the production to be viable.

Arcade houses are gone for a long time now, and I believe they were their main customers back then. I live in a small town in Brazil and I had at least 3 places to go for pinball/arcade machines in the 90s. Now I can't find a single one, even inside malls, which were full of them.

Unfortunatelly kids nowadays have other interests and way of living. I really wanted to open a enterteinment shop with pinball, arcades and other stuff but I don't see it being viable. Especially considering the price of these "toys". It may sound expensive to get a table for USD 7k in the US, to bring it here in Brazil it gets completely insane. Not even counting shipping costs, the customs taxing is simple absurd. A 7 grand table would cost me in the end something like $ 25k in our currency. Just for reference converting from USD it would cost me $ 14k in reais wich is our currency. Pretty absurd huh?

Even taking away taxes.. shipping etc, still if it costs me, lets say, 14k... just what you guys pay in the US straight converted, even then this kind of business would hardly succeed IMO. But, what I do think has a chance to have success would be renting machines to events, birthdays, perhaps even inside some companies. There are a lot of business here focused on kids birthday and others parties, they rent all kinds of stuff and pinball machines could get a very high attention, renting machines could have a chance. I believe even more in the US were a lot of companies for ex. have enterteining centers just inside the company.

I want to be wrong but, hang out spots to attract kids and teens with this kind of stuff, when today they have ultra super games on their home consoles, is not the same as our time in the past when we just didn't have stuff like that.