Will Farsight allow us to transfer our tables to the PS4 version when the time comes?

[Byte]

PS3 owners of TPA who get a PS4 are owed nothing, period. If you bought PHOF for PS2, were you automatically entitled to the same game on PS3? What makes this situation any different?

Yes, PS4 owners are owed nothing, agreed. There is a big difference with encrypted (DRM'ed) download-only software vs. that mad available on generic storage units. I can play my PS2 PHoF after my PS2 dies on modern PC hardware. With the PS3 download-only content that still remains to be seen.

Does that put an obligation on FarSight? No. But it does put a burden on us gamers what ballpark we are willing to accept to find ourselves in. Remember: we are not a bunch of little kids that are being told what we can or cannot do. We (are at least supposed to) have elected representatives that write/change laws according to our wishes. Allowing to break DRM to allow inter-operability is one of them.

For now, save all your receipts. You can still buy new, supported PS3 hardware, so there is no urgency. But 5 years from now, the situation might be different.

 

[shutyertrap]

Well, what about all the other downloaded games and DLC on your PS3? Should everything transfer? What about PS1 classics and demo games?

This seems like a nightmare. Some one pinch me when all my games get transferred.

Nintendo just did this with the Wii U for a nominal fee. Even upgraded it to match what the Wii U digital store upgrade is.

 

[ravager]

"We (are at least supposed to) have elected representatives that write/change laws according to our wishes."

I can forgive that statement since you live in Canada, and your political system hasn't been in gridlock for the last 5 years. But here in the states, that statement is just not true. The elected representatives change the laws to suit large corporations and Wall Street. Whomever has the most lobbyists, and campaign "donations", prevail. We just keep electing the same bozos (either party) time after time.

{Jumps off political soapbox}

 

[warh0g]

I am curious in general how both PSN and Xbox Live will be handled in the coming next gen.
IF Farsight will give you the new version for free because you bought it on PS3, Great!
If they will do it at a discount, great!
If you have to purchase it all over again, for me it is no big deal. I will simply buy it all again

 

[brakel]

I don't think I'm entitled to anything. It's just that if the inability to carry over DLC is indeed the case then that completely invalidates playing TPA on consoles in any form.

It doesn't invalidate playing TPA on consoles for me. I'll play them on the PS3 and then I'll buy them for the PS4. The only real difference to me is that there may be a few tables that I might not buy for the PS4 because I didn't love them on the PS3. Life is short. Enjoy the things you enjoy. I'm ok with playing TPA today on the PS3 without FarSight giving me a lifelong promise to support my DLC.

 

[pseudokings]

Here's my thing: it's really the same platform. It's not really PS3 or PS4, it's PSN. Anyone really think you won't be migrating/activating your current PSN account from the PS3 and/or Vita on the PS4? More than that even for me is this, I would stop waiting for the Wii U version and buy the damn thing on PSN right now (even with it's issues that have kept me from doing so thus far) to get all the tables I've been impatiently waiting for since the 360 version died, if I knew they would transfer with a small upgrade fee ($1.50 a table, say) to the PS4 version of TPA when it comes out (because I'm absolutely getting one). I think they should take on the Wii-to-Wii U Virtual Console upgrade path notion that Nintendo has presented for TPA on PSN, and announce it now, so that people keep buying tables instead of waiting for the PS4 version. I see this as the most reasonable (to fans) and logical (to FS) approach to take. Less people wait to buy (so they make more money now), but most people also upgrade when they see the visual difference on the PS4 (make more money then), and fans don't feel like they got screwed by having to buy the same thing over again at full price (yes, I know, but even if they're not getting screwed in whoever's opinion, that doesn't mean there won't be a ton of people who still feel that way, and might not re-buy even a single table because of it).

 

[shutyertrap]

Here's my thing: it's really the same platform. It's not really PS3 or PS4, it's PSN. Anyone really think you won't be migrating/activating your current PSN account from the PS3 and/or Vita on the PS4? More than that even for me is this, I would stop waiting for the Wii U version and buy the damn thing on PSN right now (even with it's issues that have kept me from doing so thus far) to get all the tables I've been impatiently waiting for since the 360 version died, if I knew they would transfer with a small upgrade fee ($1.50 a table, say) to the PS4 version of TPA when it comes out (because I'm absolutely getting one). I think they should take on the Wii-to-Wii U Virtual Console upgrade path notion that Nintendo has presented for TPA on PSN, and announce it now, so that people keep buying tables instead of waiting for the PS4 version. I see this as the most reasonable (to fans) and logical (to FS) approach to take. Less people wait to buy (so they make more money now), but most people also upgrade when they see the visual difference on the PS4 (make more money then), and fans don't feel like they got screwed by having to buy the same thing over again at full price (yes, I know, but even if they're not getting screwed in whoever's opinion, that doesn't mean there won't be a ton of people who still feel that way, and might not re-buy even a single table because of it).

You are much better at condensing and presenting my very same arguments that take many paragraphs and many posts into a single paragraph than I so far have! So from now on, I'm just gonna point and go...

"What pseudokings said."

Even though I was never on the Xbox, nor do I own a Wii U. And I probably won't get a PS4 for a year or two after launch.

 

[ER777]

This is an interesting debate but the whole thing might be moot since Farsight probably doesn't know yet what Sony's rules for the platform transition will be. They might want to handle it a certain way but it may not be completely up to them to make the decision.

 

[DrainoBraino]

Nintendo just did this with the Wii U for a nominal fee. Even upgraded it to match what the Wii U digital store upgrade is.

Wow that's cool.

So am I correct to assume that as far as transferring PS3 stuff to PS4, it's not really up to Farsight? If PSN follows what Nintendo did then everything should transfer.

 

[Mark W**a]

Personally, I would rather FarSight spend the extra time to fully upgrade and optimize every released table to fully take advantage of the PS4 and new Xbox (720?) hardware to make the presentation and gameplay of the tables as close to the real tables as possible. Of course this would come with a price tag which I would gladly pay to play next generation versions of the tables we have now and to further support FarSight so that they can continue to bring us new tables throughout the next generation of consoles.

The way I see it, if you want to play your currently purchased tables, then keep your last generation hardware.

Before anyone brings up Pinball FX and Zen Pinball...Zen allowed you to transfer your previously purchased tables because their updated engine ran on the same hardware as their previous engine.

Came in here to say this.

Don't expect them to overhall 42 tables to a new and improved engine and not have to pay them for the work. This isn't going to be a copy and paste, they'll have to redo the graphics for each and every table and that takes time and costs money. Noone should be complaining about this.

And if it bothers you than dont upgrade noone is forcing you to.

 

[Mark W**a]

Here's my thing: it's really the same platform. It's not really PS3 or PS4, it's PSN.

Yea nope. Not a chance.

It's like saying, hypothetical: hey, Sony's porting God of War 3 to PS4 and overhauling the graphics, an entirely new engine, a special edition of God of War 3 rebuilt from the ground up for PS4! Hey Sony can i transfer my purchase of God of War 3 from PS3 to God of War 3:Aniversary Edition on PS 4!!??

Or wait Sony I still have my Devil May Cry 1,2 and 3 discs here for PS2. Look I even have the receipts! Can I please have the Devil May Cry HD collection on ps3 for free?

See how stupid this logic is...

Your Wii U argument is even weaker. Virtual console is the ipotome of "copy and paste". They are roms running in an emulator, how can you compare that to this situation? Is the Wii U version of Chrono Trigger rebuilt from the ground up to have per pixel light sourcing lol. Think of it this way. If Chrono Trigger was "HD remixed" for Wii U, do you feel that you deserve that version for free, since you purchased the old version on Wii?

That's what I think is flying over some of your heads here. I understand where you guys are coming from, but you're not looking at this correctly. Just because PS3 and PS4 are both Sony platforms doesn't mean you are entitled to anything. You may as well say " Hey Farsight, I bought the Xbox version can I have the Windows version for free? It's all Microsoft family."

Of course you can't. Because it costs time, manpower, and money to do the PC version. Especially if you want it done right with added graphics and features. The whole point of doing additional platforms is for additional revenues. There is simply no argument to be made, you guys are really not looking at this correctly if you think the purchases should be transferred over.

 

[Mark W**a]

I do feel this is one of those things I'd like to see FarSight get in front of and communicate about. No matter what the answer is, our speculation is starting to become it's own thing. I doubt FS can give a definitive answer for numerous reasons right now, but some comment of "we got a plan in the works" or "next gen is it's own thing entirely" would certainly help the conversation or stop it outright.

Yea um no that would embarass our community that such a thing were even brought up. Phreaker and Slydogg have put it more eloquently than I. If this were brought up to Farsight studios it'd make us all look like a bunch of entitlist idiots.

Yes, PS4 owners are owed nothing, agreed. There is a big difference with encrypted (DRM'ed) download-only software vs. that mad available on generic storage units. I can play my PS2 PHoF after my PS2 dies on modern PC hardware. With the PS3 download-only content that still remains to be seen.

Does that put an obligation on FarSight? No. But it does put a burden on us gamers what ballpark we are willing to accept to find ourselves in. Remember: we are not a bunch of little kids that are being told what we can or cannot do. We (are at least supposed to) have elected representatives that write/change laws according to our wishes. Allowing to break DRM to allow inter-operability is one of them.

For now, save all your receipts. You can still buy new, supported PS3 hardware, so there is no urgency. But 5 years from now, the situation might be different.

The PS4 and PS3 are completely different hardware. It's not an issue of DRM, PS3 software would simply not run on a PS4. That's why it's not backwards compatible. It's radically different hardware architecture. It's not like going from IPhone 4S to 5, where you're just scaling up to a faster version of the same chips...

Why you bring up the ps2 is beyond me because that system was well before digital purchases were a thing. I'll make it simple for you. Digital purchases on consoles, at least how they are now, are glorified rentals because once the console is done with support, your purchases are lost forever unless you can somehow hack the system. I won't say anything else because id just be repeating myself.

Try again. Digital content you own on your PS3, with exceptions to draconian drm'd games like Final Fight, are there forever unless you delete them.

I have 150 Xbox Live purchased games. They will always be there, long after 360 xbox live servers are history. Unless my hard drive dies...( Oh ****, I never really considered that "!!!" **** talking to myself...note to self backup hdd before xbl is history...)

Well anyways guys I hate to be the bearer of bad news but neither ps4 nor 720 is backwards compatible... Yes this includes these digitally downloaded games folks.

Wow that's cool.

So am I correct to assume that as far as transferring PS3 stuff to PS4, it's not really up to Farsight? If PSN follows what Nintendo did then everything should transfer.

I hate to be so blunt, but absolutely nothing is going to transfer. Zilch, nada. Wii U is backwards compatible with Wii. If Nintendo wanted to, they'd let you transfer each and every virtual console and WiiWare title. That's not going to happen with either Nextbox or PS4. Why? Because they are not backwards compatible with the previous hardware.

There is absolutely no difference between a digital game and a retail disc game. Each is just code, written to run on the hardware. That is all. There is no magical difference between them. The only difference lay in the distribution method. PS3 game code, whether read off a Blu Ray or downloaded off the Internet, is not going to work on PS4.

And you should be happy about that. Because, if The PS4 simply ran the PS3 version of the game, with no upgrades, then what would be the point or fun in that? Instead, Farsight is building a brand new, next generation engine for PS4... That means incredible new graphics and lighting that will be amazing looking. They are redoing all the tables to take advantage of the new hardware. They will probably up the texture resolution, add more anti aliasing, arthroscopic filtering, new lighting, the works. It's going to look amazing on ps4 and become the definitive version.

Unfortunately this comes with a price. Farsight has to pay employees to go back and do the port, work hard and make it look right. This takes time, money, resources. I'm repeating myself, but this isn't like going from IPhone 4 to 5. When you get your iPhone 5, all the same software works just as it did on your iphone 4. Farsight might have to make some slight tweaks to get everything filling the new, bigger screen, but it's still the exact same engine and code as iPhone 4.

Apple changed the game there is no question about it. People's expectations have been changed (read:warped) because of this. You have to understand, going from PS3 to 4 is not the same as going from IPad 3 to 4. It's like going from iPad 1 to... iPad 7. The latest iPhone is twice as fast as the last, hey awesome guess what the latest PlayStation is ten to twelve times as fast as the last one. That's why it takes them 5-7 years to upgrade consoles not 1-2 years with phones and tablets.

So really I think people should get the whole "tablets and phones" mentality out of their heads and start remembering that these are gaming consoles. PlayStation 2 software does not work on PlayStation 3. PlayStation 1 software works because its ancient and easily emulated. Even if PS4 could emulate 3, why on earth would you want to play an old version of the game when you can play a brand new version built from the ground up with shiny pretty PS4 graphics?

I hope this clears things up for you guys.

 

[DrainoBraino]

I hate to be so blunt, but absolutely nothing is going to transfer. Zilch, nada.

This is the answer, sadly. I did some research into PS4, because I really didn't know anything about it. You are correct, sir, nothing will transfer.

I guess we can discuss now whether you think this will hurt Sony or not. I think it will at first. People will be slow to adopt. I didn't get my PS3 until way late in the game, so probably be the same deal for PS4, if I even get it at all. I prefer the classic games anyway. But if TPA is upgraded with better graphics, physics, and all our dreams are coming true, I will get it.

 

[shutyertrap]

Mark, your arguments are exactly as the one's my friend had while we heatedly debated over dinner. There is sound, logical truth in all you say.

As you said though, Apple changed the game.

That is why the conversation IS valid. There are a lot of things changing in gaming, and so much of it can be tied to what is going on with mobile. Shoot, Uncharted multiplayer just went free-to-play! I doubt a year ago that was even a glimmer of a thought to Naughty Dog. You cannot cavalierly dismiss the power of brand or customer loyalty. How else would you describe the cult of Mac addicts? And really, all Apple is doing is waiving something shiny in front of everyone's face and then slapping them from the blind side!

"Hey look, bigger screen on iPhone 5! (all your accessories won't work due to the new connector plug)"

Lately the public has dictated how their media is taken in. The music industry tried resisting almost to the point of their demise. The cell phone industry gave in to public demand regarding pricing and contracts, and yet maybe they shouldn't have (that's my friend's argument at least, and he's been in the cell business since '88) because the public is complaining about the very things they asked for.

You go over to gaming sites, and they had the same questions regarding what was gonna happen to PSN content right before the Sony event we are asking here. They still have those questions as Sony didn't give a definitive answer, but that's not to say their isn't a strong assumption as to what that answer will be. Do you know for sure what Sony is gonna charge for that streaming cloud service? Yeah, nobody else does either.

I am very much aware that PS3 hardware is not remotely the same as PS4. I know that there is no way my PS3 discs will play in a PS4. I know that FarSight is going to have to do new builds of the old tables. I think everyone here recognizes that. I'm saying that if FarSight came out right now, said for sure that we'd have to buy the tables anew at full price, my love for TPA would not diminish and I would completely understand that decision.

More to the point, now I could make informed buying decisions that wouldn't cause me to feel like made poor choices later on.

 

[shutyertrap]

I really wish I could stop posting in this thread, but I'm just trying to get the opposition to admit their is some validity to what is being said!

I'm not sure if it was for the PSP Go or the Vita, but there was a moment when Sony talked of having stations where you could plug in your UMD version of the game, pay a small fee, and have it become a digital download. I wanna say it was for the Vita. My PSP is a first generation model, I have about 20 games for it. With battery life what it is, and the screen not being has good as the later versions, upgrading to the Vita is very appealing to me. The transferring over of the UMD discs would have been the proper shove needed to get one.

And then Sony changed their mind.

Well, I don't wanna start over with a game collection. I also feel kinda burned that had I been buying the titles digitally, I WOULD have them to play on the Vita. So whereas Sony could have gotten an extra bit of coin from each title I had PLUS the sale of a Vita, they got neither. Why would I wanna play older generation games? I don't know, why is Final Fantasy VII always one of the most downloaded titles for PSP and Vita? Some games are plain awesome no matter how old they are. And in a day where people are arguing whether portable gaming can even survive in a the mobile era (you're gonna carry your phone AND a Vita or 3DS or PSP?), there's not a chance in hell I'm gonna carry a PSP and Vita at the same time.

What does this have to do with FarSight and TPA?

I WOULD pay a buck or buck fifty extra per table pack right now, if it meant I'd get the PS4 version too. I essentially do the same thing right now with Blu-Rays. I don't own a 3D tv, probably won't get one for another 2 years. Yet when I buy Blu-Rays and the pack with the 3D version is available, that's the one I buy. I'm doing that with The Hobbit today. The 3D version is only $3 more, so why not? In a month or so, that package won't be available anymore and they'll start selling the 3D only package for near the same price. The studios are encouraging you to buy and buy early even though they can make more money off you later. So maybe THAT is another tact that could be used in this TPA scenario.

I've acknowledged the fact that it makes no business sense to give away the product. Can I get some acknowledgment that it makes sense to reward loyal customers?

 

[pseudokings]

Yea nope. Not a chance.

It's like saying, hypothetical: hey, Sony's porting God of War 3 to PS4 and overhauling the graphics, an entirely new engine, a special edition of God of War 3 rebuilt from the ground up for PS4! Hey Sony can i transfer my purchase of God of War 3 from PS3 to God of War 3:Aniversary Edition on PS 4!!??

Or wait Sony I still have my Devil May Cry 1,2 and 3 discs here for PS2. Look I even have the receipts! Can I please have the Devil May Cry HD collection on ps3 for free?

See how stupid this logic is...

Your Wii U argument is even weaker. Virtual console is the ipotome of "copy and paste". They are roms running in an emulator, how can you compare that to this situation? Is the Wii U version of Chrono Trigger rebuilt from the ground up to have per pixel light sourcing lol. Think of it this way. If Chrono Trigger was "HD remixed" for Wii U, do you feel that you deserve that version for free, since you purchased the old version on Wii?

That's what I think is flying over some of your heads here. I understand where you guys are coming from, but you're not looking at this correctly. Just because PS3 and PS4 are both Sony platforms doesn't mean you are entitled to anything. You may as well say " Hey Farsight, I bought the Xbox version can I have the Windows version for free? It's all Microsoft family."

Of course you can't. Because it costs time, manpower, and money to do the PC version. Especially if you want it done right with added graphics and features. The whole point of doing additional platforms is for additional revenues. There is simply no argument to be made, you guys are really not looking at this correctly if you think the purchases should be transferred over.

Wow. Super insulting/condescending tone. Have to retort your argument. You seem to be stuck on the notion of "free". I'm not talking about free. If Farsight get's a $1.50 upgrade free for each table, then based on just the tables released so far, if someone rebuys them all (as I think many would at a reasonable upgrade cost like that) they'd make something like $39. What did those PS2-to-PS3 HD-remake games/collections cost from Sony? $40 right? Argument defeated. They aren't getting screwed, and neither are we if they do so. And all the "it won't work" and "Sony won't allow it" BS is just that, none of you know jack yet about what Sony will or won't allow/do, and my money says that flexibility in matters just such as this is a place that Sony might just be looking to get a leg up on MS's horrible policies. Look at how Nintendo has changed their tune.

BTW, let's all stop pretending they are developing Uncharted 4 over here. It's pinball. It doesn't even have that great of graphics (as of now). Just because they are rebuilding the engine for PS4 (which due to architecture has like a 99% chance of just being a modified version of their PC graphics engine anyway) doesn't automatically mean they are spending $100 Million on TPA for PS4, or that it's going to be 100% photo-realistic perfection.

Couple other points: 1. There is more to the Wii-to-Wii U Virtual Console ports than you are mentioning, not a lot, but enough to have value to some (MiiVerse, not having to change the orientation of the picture on your TV, etc.). 2. The 360-to-PC because it's MS argument is ridiculous, and one no-one is making, though there are probably a ton of people who would take them up on it if offered as an apology for the debacle that has been the 360 TPA experience. 3. The whole DMC with receipts joke doesn't hold water either because those games where not available as digital downloads when new. "The game" is different when you take the brick-and-mortar (and the disc/box) out of the equation. It just is. The digital download media world has different expectations from consumers. Ask Apple. If you buy a new computer, do you plan to re-buy all the music/video you have in iTunes? It's not a perfect analogy, but it's at worst as good as the one's you were using, and even more to the point, remember iTunes Plus upgrades to DRM-Free, higher quality audio versions of all the songs everyone bought in the earlier days of iTunes? It's the same song you already bought, just better. Better graphics on pinball tables you already own, is a lot more like that to a lot of people (and I'm talking especially beyond the kind of core fans who post here) than you seem to think. I bet Zen is going to do an upgrade path if Sony/MS will let them, or if they don't intend to upgrade all their tables, they'll probably at least make sure they make it to where you can get all your (already purchased) tables at their existing PS3 quality (maybe with any little bugs worked out) on your PS4. Why wouldn't FS?

 

[smbhax]

Rewarding customers *is* good business sense. It should be easy to do between PS3 and PS4 because PSN IDs will--presumably--be the same, so they'll know which tables you already purchased on PS3/Vita. The other reason for them to do it is because otherwise PS3 table sales might drop to nearly nothing for the rest of the year until the PS4 comes out--and then some users might not get the PS4, or might delay getting it (I think I would hold off until the first major hardware revision, for instance), and then they've lost a customer, or at least lost one for around a year or so. So if they want to keep their sales steady, which is often a nice thing when you're minding your bottom line from month to month, carrying table purchases over to PS4 would make sense.

On the other hand, maybe they'll figure it's worth it to gamble on a revenue spike when the hardcore players snap up the first wave of PS4s. And the more time that goes by without hearing anything from them about it, the more and more likely it will seem that they're going to go that non-transfer route. Possibly they're waiting to make sure it's doable now, but if we get into say autumn and still haven't heard anything, it's probably not gonna be looking good.

Hm I suppose another possibility is that the PS4 version would simply include all previously released tables from the get-go. : o Ah what fun speculation is!

 

[Jeff Strong]

Of course they're going to charge for the PS4 versions, just like they charged for the updated PHOF tables in TPA (and those were on the SAME platforms). It's the only way they can make major updates and still stay afloat as a business. I'm not sure how we could expect them to put that much work in for free.

 

[DrainoBraino]

Of course they're going to charge for the PS4 versions, just like they charged for the updated PHOF tables in TPA (and those were on the SAME platforms). It's the only way they can make major updates and still stay afloat as a business. I'm not sure how we could expect them to put that much work in for free.

Zen didn't charge for Zen 2 upgrade!

So what is PSN gonna be called? PSNew? PS4N?

Seriously though, this is gonna be a mess. The more I read about it, the more I can sense an explosion coming. Look at us here, people already getting a little worked up over a pinball game. Some kids (and adults) revolve their whole lives around PS3 games. Better close the door to the basement, Mom, there's gonna be a ragesplosion.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Zen didn't charge for Zen 2 upgrade!

So what is PSN gonna be called? PSNew? PS4N?

Seriously though, this is gonna be a mess. The more I read about it, the more I can sense an explosion coming. Look at us here, people already getting a little worked up over a pinball game. Some kids (and adults) revolve their whole lives around PS3 games. Better close the door to the basement, Mom, there's gonna be a ragesplosion.

Yeah, but this isn't Zen...and they didn't completely overhaul the graphics on the older tables in Zen 2.

I'm guessing the jump from TPA to TPA 2 (or whatever it's going to be called on next gen consoles) is going to be a bigger jump than PHOF to TPA, so the price should be worth the extra pennies per table.