Williams Pinball App Discussion

[EldarOfSuburbia]

There is clearly a significant difference between iOS "pricing" and Android "pricing". I've been playing (almost) daily since the Android beta was launched and completing the challenges available to me, with a couple of days where I've reset challenges and some "grinding" in Arcade Mode.

Here's where I'm at:

185 tickets
0 coins
Level 20 (just short of level 21)

AFM: 2*, 32/50 parts for 3* (would be 3000 tickets to promote once I get the parts)
BRose: 1*, 15/15 parts for 2* (need 750 tickets to promote)
PZ: 2*, 20/50 parts for 3*
FT: 2*, 14/50 parts for 3*
HS2: 1*, 15/15 parts for 2* (need 750 tickets)
JY: 1*, 15/15 parts for 2* (need 750 tickets)
MM: 2*, 21/50 parts for 3*

Resources are far harder to come by on Android, it seems to me.

 

[Peter NYC]

I own all the tables outright, 4 stars. Without spending money. Just play the daily challenges and do well. I got them in about 2 weeks.

Same here.

 

[Craig Grannell]

A new update just dropped, which should help with some of the frame-rate stuff.

 

[Gorgias32]

Mine also is 3000 tickets to upgrade to three stars.

I started the Android beta when it came out, and have done a lot of "pay 25 tickets to refresh" the one star daily challenge, so I now have all tables upgraded to 2 stars. I'm guessing it will take me a few days concentrated grinding and video-watching to save up the 3000 tickets. I have enough table parts to upgrade AFM to three stars already.

I'm interested in hearing how many tickets you need to upgrade a table to four stars, if anyone has ever actually saved up the parts and 3000 tickets to get to three stars on Android. I'm guessing 5000 or more. I really think they should rethink how many tickets are given out, because you need to use tickets for other things (refreshing challenges, tournament mode), so at some point it becomes prohibitive to spend on a table upgrade, when you get 10, 15, 25 and very rarely 40 tickets at a pop when flipping the post-challenge cards, and 50 if you watch an ad every 2 hours.

In the most recent Blahcade podcast, Jared expressed frustration with the pricing, and I agree - I like the IAP implementation in general, but it does seem like the tickets balance is currently just off. It would go a long way if every so often (maybe when going up a level, or advancing a rank in tournaments) you had a chance to get 1000 or 2000 tickets as an award - something to jump start things forward and motivate play, and avoid the feeling of getting into "I have to grind for literally three days to get this single upgrade". At this point we only have 7 tables, but more are coming, so it's not like people will quickly get all the tables upgraded and stop watching ads, it's a system that will continue to encourage more play and revenue from active users as new content is added.

 

[PiN WiZ]

It's 100 table parts plus 100 Zen coins to promote a table to 4 stars on the Android beta.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

It's 100 table parts plus 100 Zen coins to promote a table to 4 stars on the Android beta.

100 coins?! Jeez that might take a lifetime....

 

[shutyertrap]

100 coins?! Jeez that might take a lifetime....

Or it'll take until the Android version of the app gets out of beta and takes on all the same structure currently in the iOS version. Android will eventually align with iOS in pricing and upgrade requirements. While in beta though, Zen is testing certain parameters within the app for data purposes.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Or it'll take until the Android version of the app gets out of beta and takes on all the same structure currently in the iOS version. Android will eventually align with iOS in pricing and upgrade requirements. While in beta though, Zen is testing certain parameters within the app for data purposes.

In other words, we're all guinea pigs for Zen to see just how far we'll go?

I would like them to introduce a "just buy it" option for each table. Obviously going by past comments I'm not alone in this sentiment. I'm not saying I'd use it - but others would, for sure.

 

[shutyertrap]

I said "unfeasibly", in the sense of them being inconvenient. Perhaps you're playing significantly more hours than I am. I've been playing the game daily for a week. I have Attack From Mars on two stars, and four more tables on one star. (As for freemium games, I'm well versed in them. Google my name online, and you'll see I write about the things all over the shop. Also, notably, I am one of the few mobile games writers who regularly and consistently covers pinball, hence my interest in this title and its mechanics.) And, yes, I realise you get to buy the tables outright, but I do find it curious that the pricing for these is significantly higher than on other platforms. (I've asked Zen about this – and some other things – with my journo hat on, but haven't received any reply.) So whereas on other platforms, it's "buy three tables for a tenner", on iOS it's "buy one table for a tenner, unless you're prepared to play the lottery".

"Indefeasibly"...thanks autocorrect! Grrrr.

I don't know that I play the game more than a usual amount. I play during commercial breaks of basketball games, or while waiting to pick up my son, or visiting the porcelain throne. I do play the Skillz multiplayer version a bit, but that doesn't affect your rewards in the main app. My frustration with many posts I read is that the actual game play itself is so rarely talked about. People dump on the app because they can't see past the 'freemium' aspects, which are exceedingly easy to get beyond. Name another pinball app out there that allows you to play every one of their tables, for free, in such a short amount of time. Zen has apps for Star Wars, Marvel, Zen Pinball, none of which let you play more than one table for free while not letting you even so much as sample the other tables with a timed trial. Their apps for Bethesda Pinball and Aliens vs Pinball offer the ability to play for free, but you always need to watch a video or use tickets, there is no way to earn the tables outright. Zaccaria Pinball and Pinball Arcade are purely pay to play apps.

So while all these other apps offer straightforward pay schemes, they don't offer the ability to fully unlock tables via grinding. Let's talk grinding apps then. There's been a few apps I've played over the years that offer the choice of grinding or paying, most of which come to a point within a month or two of playing where you hit a hard paywall to either advance in upgrades needed, or to avoid the "you need to wait x amount of hours to refill your energy bar". Zen is offering something here with no paywall and the ability to be done with grinding in a matter of weeks.

Of course there's one other aspect to look at, and that's whether or not a person likes the 'daily challenges' version of play. I personally enjoy them, unless it's 1 ball on Junk Yard or Party Zone. That mode on those is just evil! But what I'm saying is, even in FX3 I enjoy doing these, only there once complete, no sense in ever playing again. Here where it resets every 24 hours, I feel like it's a new competition each time and so I keep coming back. It's very similar to how having Tournament mode in FX3 completely won me over to playing that game significantly more often than TPA, because competition is fun. If all a person wants is to be able to play full 3 ball games of each table and doesn't enjoy the challenges at all, then I can see how this app will be a drag for them.

Ultimately what I think needs to be looked at is what sort of game did Zen want out there? I believe they wanted something that engages the player in a manner that keeps them coming back to the app. This was a big point of them doing what they did in FX3, I'm sure that ethos is carrying over to this. The higher pricing aspect is more of a "oh you don't want to play how we want? You have no patience for playing? Fine, but it's gonna cost you". And truth be told, if you want your game skills to improve, playing the challenges is one of the best ways to learn quick, safe, and effective scoring.

 

[shutyertrap]

Boom, all tables fully unlocked as of now. Looks like Zen made things even easier with collecting parts, as it was no longer giving me cards for previously maxed tables, only the parts I needed. That made maxing the last 2 tables happen real quick. On the whole, it took 3+ weeks in the beta to reach this point as opposed to the 16 days it just did.

 

[Fungi]

I was about to say the same thing. Boom! I just opened the last table.

 

[Craig Grannell]

shutyertrap: On Zen's other apps, there is a very big difference in terms of pricing, unless things have markedly changed of late. Most of those have (had?) very cheap tables, and so as impulse purchases you can splash out a couple of bucks on something, and move on to the next if you're not keen. However, with Williams, it's not the freemium model I find problematic so much as the dual currency thing (which has infected a whole raft of freemium titles), combined with what I've personally perceived to be very slow unlocking (again, perhaps I'm just rubbish at pinball – or not playing enough). If there were single-table unlocks for prices broadly equivalent to those on other platforms, that'd make sense to me.

So the app becomes this weird mix of generosity (potentially play everything for free), grinding (sure, you're playing pinball, but you're also going through the motions of what the app dictates, when the app dictates, so this for me is mixed – sometimes good and sometimes less so), and locking content behind multiple currencies.

Bar the minor frame-rate issues, I should note that I'm still playing the game and enjoying it. I'm also very aware of how tough the mobile market is, and I want companies to make money. I will also be covering the game in at least two publications. I just wish the balance was a bit different.

Ultimately what I think needs to be looked at is what sort of game did Zen want out there? I believe they wanted something that engages the player in a manner that keeps them coming back to the app.

This is a fair point. I recall talking to someone at Zen a fair while back about business models for an article. I was comparing their app to PA. They noted when they offered demos, quite often people would burn through them and not return, instead heading to something else that was free. Presumably, Williams is an attempt to get through that by way of serving ads, encouraging ad-hoc one-off coin purchases (for that final chunk), and also tempting 'whales'. I also imagine all the pricing has been set on the basis of careful analytics, and you cannot really compare cross-platform anyway. After all, you see a ton of iOS games heading to Switch, and in doing so rather suspiciously going up in price, sometimes to an eye-watering degree. This just happens to have been a price shift in the other direction.

And pricing is always what the market will bear. Even so, I do rather wish that 'box of Zen coins' for ten quid was 450 coins, and that each table unlock was 150. That would align pricing with other platforms (despite what I just said –*yeah, yeah), and not leave you in that weird place of having leftover chunks of virtual currency.

 

[MBeeching]

I've played the Android beta excessively and have thus far accumulated:

All tables: Grade 2
League Points: 8052
Tickets: 10
XP Level: 28

Parts list:
AFM - 18/50
BR - 7/50
PZ - 20/50
FT - 9/50
HS2 - 14/50
JY - 19/50
MM - 50+/50

I'm rarely getting part drops for anything except MM, there's currently no way to see the total unless I promote the table. However I'm currently using all my tickets trying to reach Diamond rank before the first season concludes (6 days).

After reaching Grade 2 I stopped spending Zen coins on rewards, they're seemingly too valuable and I don't need any more cosmetics. Saving them for a feature unlock appears logical but will likely take a long time.

I'd like to promote Black Rose to Grade 3 so I can change the flipper colour, the standard black version has poor contrast - particularly on the upper flipper. There's a row of bright lights nearby and they're incredibly distracting so I briefly lose sight of the flipper (I have the same issue on PC to a lesser degree). This table also suffers from relatively high input lag on my phone which doesn't help with shot timing.

 

[shutyertrap]

shutyertrap: On Zen's other apps, there is a very big difference in terms of pricing, unless things have markedly changed of late. Most of those have (had?) very cheap tables, and so as impulse purchases you can splash out a couple of bucks on something, and move on to the next if you're not keen. However, with Williams, it's not the freemium model I find problematic so much as the dual currency thing (which has infected a whole raft of freemium titles), combined with what I've personally perceived to be very slow unlocking (again, perhaps I'm just rubbish at pinball – or not playing enough). If there were single-table unlocks for prices broadly equivalent to those on other platforms, that'd make sense to me.

So the app becomes this weird mix of generosity (potentially play everything for free), grinding (sure, you're playing pinball, but you're also going through the motions of what the app dictates, when the app dictates, so this for me is mixed – sometimes good and sometimes less so), and locking content behind multiple currencies.

Bar the minor frame-rate issues, I should note that I'm still playing the game and enjoying it. I'm also very aware of how tough the mobile market is, and I want companies to make money. I will also be covering the game in at least two publications. I just wish the balance was a bit different.


This is a fair point. I recall talking to someone at Zen a fair while back about business models for an article. I was comparing their app to PA. They noted when they offered demos, quite often people would burn through them and not return, instead heading to something else that was free. Presumably, Williams is an attempt to get through that by way of serving ads, encouraging ad-hoc one-off coin purchases (for that final chunk), and also tempting 'whales'. I also imagine all the pricing has been set on the basis of careful analytics, and you cannot really compare cross-platform anyway. After all, you see a ton of iOS games heading to Switch, and in doing so rather suspiciously going up in price, sometimes to an eye-watering degree. This just happens to have been a price shift in the other direction.

And pricing is always what the market will bear. Even so, I do rather wish that 'box of Zen coins' for ten quid was 450 coins, and that each table unlock was 150. That would align pricing with other platforms (despite what I just said –*yeah, yeah), and not leave you in that weird place of having leftover chunks of virtual currency.

I've stated this before, in that I am exactly the type of person that refuses to pay for games on mobile. I already have all the tables of Zen, Zacc, and TPA on my PC, so double dipping holds no interest to me. I also view mobile gaming more as a casual experience and not something I want to invest funds into. So even though Zen isn't getting money out of me from Zen coin purchases, they have probably gotten what they needed from me through videos I've viewed. I've actually tried 3 different apps because of those videos, I don't know if Zen gets extra from click installs but I'd bet the data exists at the least. In my conversations with Zen, they have said that the vast majority of mobile players fall more into my camp than the "just let me pay for it" camp, and that data comes from what they saw with all their other pinball apps (which you'll notice all feature something unique in how they are presented). The Williams Pinball app is essentially the culmination of all that data, and more than likely is what the next generation of the mobile Zen Pinball app will be like (they want it to be close in experience to what FX3 is on console/PC).

The dual currency thing, again I think I'm kinda immune to it as I've seen it so often. In our last podcast, I mentioned how the psychological game of buying a pack that contains more coin than you actually need is also nothing new. It's why swipe cards you load up at an arcade are ideal, why tokens were popular, because inevitably you go home with extra, and there's only one place you can spend it. Vegas does this too with their slot machines by letting you have credits on the machine rather than constantly having to feed it coins. Feeding coins, you are innately aware of spending money each and every time. Credits on the other hand, those are easy to spend! Going in with eyes wide open, I tend to make a new game of trying to make it out with a perfect zero sum balance.

My gripe with all of those games that use dual currency is that conversions are only one way. So real money converts to diamonds, diamonds can be used to buy coin packs, and coins are what you can earn (slowly) by grinding. I've always wanted the ability to spend those coins on diamonds though, as some games ONLY let you do certain things with that upper currency. In Zen's case, you still can't spend tickets to buy Zen coins, but at least now and then you get gifted those Zen coins. The same thing happened in the Skillz app (while playing FarSight's Pinball Tournaments) where by grinding the free play practice tournaments, I kept earning achievements which gifts you a prize. I had a few of those gift me a total of $3 for use in the cash games. Since you can't withdraw the money until you've earned over $50, this acted as a free trial like what casinos do by comping you some chips. I have turned that money into over $50 through play in that app, Zen's eSports edition of pinball, and now the Williams Pinball app.

I do hope that when you do write your article about the Williams App that proper focus is given to the game itself. I've had not one issue with frame rates or touch controls on my iPhone 7 Plus, though I know people have been experiencing issues on various iPads. Multiple people in this thread have also maxed out the tables in relatively the same amount of time I have, so that would be a good counter point to bring up compared to your unlocking experience. I by no means want to denigrate people's opinions on the game, I just don't want those opinions to be viewed as absolute fact.

 

[Craig Grannell]

I do hope that when you do write your article about the Williams App that proper focus is given to the game itself.

The articles I write are round-ups rather than reviews. So although they are recommendations, they aren't rated. They are also very heavily restricted in terms of word count. On that basis, one will mention the unlock mechanism, and otherwise basically talk about the pinball. The other has a specific section for IAP, where I have the option of outlining any drawbacks (as I perceive them), but separately from the main coverage of the game itself.

Multiple people in this thread have also maxed out the tables in relatively the same amount of time I have, so that would be a good counter point to bring up compared to your unlocking experience.

If nothing else, this showcases how random this can be. I've had the opposite happen elsewhere –*blazing through games while others have got stuck, for whatever reason.

As I've said, I do like the game. Frame-rate issues aren't too awful for me, and will be addressed. The business model hasn't stopped me playing. And from a journalism standpoint, I've covered games with far worse business mechanics than this, and so that specific thing wouldn't stop me writing about Williams Pinball anyway – unless it was very aggressive and anti-player indeed, which I don't believe it is.

 

[jaredmorgs]

The articles I write are round-ups rather than reviews. So although they are recommendations, they aren't rated. They are also very heavily restricted in terms of word count. On that basis, one will mention the unlock mechanism, and otherwise basically talk about the pinball. The other has a specific section for IAP, where I have the option of outlining any drawbacks (as I perceive them), but separately from the main coverage of the game itself.


If nothing else, this showcases how random this can be. I've had the opposite happen elsewhere –*blazing through games while others have got stuck, for whatever reason.

As I've said, I do like the game. Frame-rate issues aren't too awful for me, and will be addressed. The business model hasn't stopped me playing. And from a journalism standpoint, I've covered games with far worse business mechanics than this, and so that specific thing wouldn't stop me writing about Williams Pinball anyway – unless it was very aggressive and anti-player indeed, which I don't believe it is.

Craig, I've been puzzling over where I've seen your name before.

It's it from Android Police?

I know they do great weekly game roundups. I used to hang out for them when I was really into Android gaming (and was using Google plus).

 

[MadScience2006]

In the iOS App Store, the developer (that replies to the reviews) has stated in replies to reviews that there now a way to purchase all tables, unlocked for a limited time.

However, there is nothing in the current app (App Store states the app version is 1.0.4 but the app version itself states it's 1.0.7) that allows this magical purchase.

 

[Craig Grannell]

Craig, I've been puzzling over where I've seen your name before.

I’ve never written for Android Police, no. The majority of my Android coverage has been for Stuff and TechRadar.

 

[Gord Lacey]

In the iOS App Store, the developer (that replies to the reviews) has stated in replies to reviews that there now a way to purchase all tables, unlocked for a limited time.

However, there is nothing in the current app (App Store states the app version is 1.0.4 but the app version itself states it's 1.0.7) that allows this magical purchase.

I just opened the app and there’s a limited time offer (2 days, 23 hours left) where I can unlock all 7 tables for $27.99 Canadian ($4/table). Unfortunately I only have $20 on my iTunes account; I tend to buy tables piecemeal as well.

 

[Craig Grannell]

I just opened the app and there’s a limited time offer (2 days, 23 hours left) where I can unlock all 7 tables for $27.99 Canadian ($4/table). Unfortunately I only have $20 on my iTunes account; I tend to buy tables piecemeal as well.

Seems good value though. In sterling, that’d be under 20 quid, I imagine. (I don’t see the pop-up here, and so perhaps it’s only available in some territories, or is being slowly rolled out.)