WMS License - Speculation Thread

[lio]

First and foremost I wish there was a way Farsight could retain the license and keep on making WMS/Bally recreations.
Assuming this is out of question I hope someone else will be able to acquire the license and continue where Farsight was forced out (so I hope for option 1 but fear option 2 is far more likely).

True, there is currently a "king of the game" but since that "king" is effectively losing most of the valuable tables in the collection that position will be vacant at least for any new players and consoles that come late to the game .
Also there are still plenty of good WMS/Bally games out there that could be digitized before existing TPA recreations would have to be recreated once again.
And even though I supported each and every of the kickstarters and have every season in "pro" flavor I'd gladly buy tables again if the ball physics were better, if the graphics were more polished (season 1 & season 2 tables I am looking at you), if there was VR support, etc. It's not like there was/is no room for improvement left that could justify buying the same tables again (even people on this very forum have offered to re-purchase properly updated versions of season 1 & 2...).
It might not be easy for someone else to take the crown but over time I think it would at least be possible.

 

[Gorgias32]

The only thing that makes me think it might be a competitive product is how they shut down future sales so abruptly. Just moving the IP into casino games doesn't mean they would want to stop Farsight from selling the existing tables they have already created, in fact TPA would drive interest in casino versions. It seems like if that were not the case, they would just say, "we're not going to let you make any new tables, but you can continue to sell what you have already made, in perpetuity".

But as others have suggested, it does seem like a distinct possibility that a bean counter looked at the fact that it was costing them $x in lawyer fees every two years to review and update the Farsight contract, and the revenue from Farsight is $y, and there are other projects they could have that lawyer work on that are >$y, so they just said "don't renew or spend any time on this". Really unfortunate.

 

[Gord Lacey]

That's not usually how contracts work - you have an end date to them. If you grant someone rights in perpetuity, you can't easily revoke those rights if something changes.

 

[dougdi]

I would think they would monetize through a pay per play like real machines.

I know this has been going on in some other threads, but I'd be interested in what ideas/speculations people have regarding what Scientific Games may be planning to do with the WMS licenses. Here are my thoughts, just brainstorming:

1. New digital pinball game - what's really interesting is that they are being so firm in 1. not allowing future sales of already created tables, and 2. shutting down the Switch release so quickly. This leads me to believe they are planning on sublicensing/marketing a competing product to Farsight. I think this has to be the most likely option. Whether it's good or bad news for fans remains to be seen.
2. Maybe the revenue they got from TPA was not enough to make it worth it to them to keep the license agreements in place (legal fees, time and focus), and they just want to sit on the licenses, hoping they gain value and can be sold at a higher price to someone eventually.
3. Scientific Games bought the license in 2013, they are a gambling software company, possibly they are planning on doing some kind of gambling product (digital poker or something like that) using digital pinball licenses. Doesn't really explain why they wouldn't want TPA to have their tables, though, since TPA would just increase popularity of the games in general.
4. More focus on "Remakes" of physical games - with Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars and now Monster Bash getting "remade" and sold in real life, maybe they are locking down the IP to focus more on this. It doesn't really make sense, I guess, since TPA has almost certainly been a primary vehicle for the resurgence of popularity of physical pinball, but it's a possibility that they are viewing digital pinball as some kind of competition

Does anyone have any other ideas?

 

[FarSight_Matt]

Yeah, in some part you can blame Disney - as a general before the change to placate corporations rather than individuals the IP protection was 50years, what you would expect a person to live and benefit from the work done.
Now Disney was getting close to loose there 'rights' to Micky Mouse and so lobbied to change the law so that it could forever hold the rights to this character... Well, I am not impressed with humanity thinking Corporations are 'more human than humans themselves'

Don't blame Disney, they're just doing their job. Thank the self-serving government, but I guess they're just doing their job too.

 

[HotHamBoy]

I'd hope the license goes to another developer instead of just going nowhere.

There is strong correlation between The Pinball Arcade's launch in 2012 and a resurgence in interest in real pinball that year leading to where we are now.

In 2013 Stern said their sales were up 30% in 2012. Prices for older games went up, too.

Not having Bally/Williams classics easily available on digital platforms could potentially have an impact on the amount of new people becoming aware or nostalgic of and interested in real pinball.

Not saying there's not good stuff left in TPA to capture the hearts and minds, but those were the banner games.

 

[Narc0lep5y]

I'd hope the license goes to another developer instead of just going nowhere.

There is strong correlation between The Pinball Arcade's launch in 2012 and a resurgence in interest in real pinball that year leading to where we are now.

In 2013 Stern said their sales were up 30% in 2012. Prices for older games went up, too.

Not having Bally/Williams classics easily available on digital platforms could potentially have an impact on the amount of new people becoming aware or nostalgic of and interested in real pinball.

Not saying there's not good stuff left in TPA to capture the hearts and minds, but those were the banner games.

As much as I'd want to give TPA all the credit for this - given the price tag of actual pinball machines, it was probably influenced more by the upturn in the economy after the crash in 2008.

 

[Locksley]

As much as I'd want to give TPA all the credit for this - given the price tag of actual pinball machines, it was probably influenced more by the upturn in the economy after the crash in 2008.

Well yeah, but the reason they spent there money on a pinball machine is because they were enlightened by TPA

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

I'm not so sure. I think it's a demographic thing. People who were students or just starting their careers in the late 80s/early 90s when pinball had its last "golden age" with pins in every bar and pizza shop and student union, all over the world, went on to have entry-level jobs with entry-level salaries, get married, start families, and do all that stuff that costs $$$ and time.

Right now they're hitting their mid-40s, kids have grown up maybe, job is paying better than in was - in other words you have more time and more money, and folks who were pinheads back in the 80s/90s are revisiting this interest. The revival in interest in pinball isn't really a revival - it never went away - but there's been an influx of buyers, and an influx of buyers will always drive up prices.

 

[Narc0lep5y]

Well yeah, but the reason they spent there money on a pinball machine is because they were enlightened by TPA

I guess they weren't enlightened enough by Pinball Hall of Fame Gottlieb and PHoF Wiliams collections 4-8 years earlier

 

[Catapult Ace]

Wouldn't it be time now to get everyone who is interested in the "Addams Family Gold Edition" the possibility to purchase this pinball edition?

 

[Demonolith]

Wouldn't it be time now to get everyone who is interested in the "Addams Family Gold Edition" the possibility to purchase this pinball edition?

It would be nice. Even if the price is ridiculous at $100 to match the kickstarter, at least the option would be there. Otherwise it'd be gone forever, or at least until FS can reach a deal with WMS again which seems highly unlikely

 

[shutyertrap]

Well yeah, but the reason they spent there money on a pinball machine is because they were enlightened by TPA

Honestly, TPA has gotten a few of us to purchase machines. Digital pinball, whether it was Visual Pinball, playing Zen, PHOF, or TPA, kept pinball in the forefront of my mind. The monthly releases of TPA just kept fueling the nostalgia fire, making me desperate to find pinball in the wild. Once I put hands on machine again, I started dreaming of owning. I stumbled upon the 2 machines I now own, both at exactly the time I had some disposable income, and both were wildly inexpensive ($500 for Firepower, $620 for Eight Ball Deluxe). Were I not playing digital pinball, I would not have been paying attention to pinball for sale, would not be doing a podcast about pinball, would not be in a pinball league. I'm not saying the recent rise of pinball sales is due to TPA, but it was for me, it was for Jeff Strong, it was for Jared Morgan, and I've heard others on this forum say the same.

 

[shutyertrap]

It would be nice. Even if the price is ridiculous at $100 to match the kickstarter, at least the option would be there. Otherwise it'd be gone forever, or at least until FS can reach a deal with WMS again which seems highly unlikely

I'm sure those kickstarter supporters would still get pissy about it being made available to non kick supporters. *rolls eyes*
They were very vocal about not wanting to share their toys.

 

[Citizen]

I'm able to switch TAF into "Gold Mode" on my Vita, and I didn't support the Kickstarter (because I didn't know about it).

Is this normal?

Once I put hands on machine again, I started dreaming of owning. I stumbled upon the 2 machines I now own, both at exactly the time I had some disposable income, and both were wildly inexpensive ($500 for Firepower, $620 for Eight Ball Deluxe). Were I not playing digital pinball, I would not have been paying attention to pinball for sale

That's pretty awesome, good finds. There was a Corvette around here for sale for $690 recently but someone got to it before me.

Wouldn't it be time now to get everyone who is interested in the "Addams Family Gold Edition" the possibility to purchase this pinball edition?

It wouldn't surprise me if the WMS contract doesn't even allow them to sell it normally.

 

[Naildriver74]

I'm sure those kickstarter supporters would still get pissy about it being made available to non kick supporters. *rolls eyes*
They were very vocal about not wanting to share their toys.

Not all, I wouldn’t mind at all. My main goal was too just get the table out. I would like to know how others feel.

 

[Catapult Ace]

I'm able to switch TAF into "Gold Mode" on my Vita, and I didn't support the Kickstarter (because I didn't know about it).

Is this normal?

Cool, likely not, there is no support for PS3/PS Vita anymore as far as I know, so I think there won't be a new patch or something. I have all seasons on PS3 (and also on PS Vita thereby), maybe I should purchase one.

I'm sure those kickstarter supporters would still get pissy about it being made available to non kick supporters. *rolls eyes*
They were very vocal about not wanting to share their toys.

Maybe, but Farsight should use the left timeframe to get much money as possbile out of it (that's what I would do at least). For PS3 and Xbox 360 I can say that the Gold Edition is already included in the game files of the regular Addams Family pinball, so I think it's the same for all currently supported platforms, so it's only a simple unlock (supposedly).

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Hands off my TAF Gold, you dirty commoners! It's mine all mine and you can't have it. Be off with you and your grubby little hands!

 

[Catapult Ace]

Hands off my TAF Gold, you dirty commoners! It's mine all mine and you can't have it. Be off with you and your grubby little hands!

C'mon Farsight, now you must give it everyone free.

 

[Narc0lep5y]

I'm sure those kickstarter supporters would still get pissy about it being made available to non kick supporters. *rolls eyes*
They were very vocal about not wanting to share their toys.

I have no problem with selling TAF Gold for the next 45 days if it means i get to have steam licenses of all my tables including TAF Gold. For that matter, I dont care if you give it away for the next 45 days. Call it a thanks for supporting us or a bonus if you own all 7 seasons reward to help justify the sales during this last period. Just make it so steam has a record of it.