Could TPA benefit from allowing users to adjust the table angle?

[msilcommand]

I hear a lot about the "floaty" ball in TPA, and now that I have played the Williams tables on FX3, you can see a very marked difference in the speed of the game. Fx3 is an overall faster game, but did they opt for a 7 degree angle feel on their emulated tables, or more, for that faster play? Could TPA be made more exciting and challenging by allowing players to increase the table angle, maybe a 6.5-7.5 slider option?

I know Farsight has a lot going on right now, but if they come back down running, could this be something to help them compete with Zen?

 

[dmil666]

I hear a lot about the "floaty" ball in TPA, and now that I have played the Williams tables on FX3, you can see a very marked difference in the speed of the game. Fx3 is an overall faster game, but did they opt for a 7 degree angle feel on their emulated tables, or more, for that faster play? Could TPA be made more exciting and challenging by allowing player to increase the table angle, maybe a 6.5-7.5 slider option?

I know Farsight has a lot going on right now, but if they come back down running, could this be something to help them compete with Zen?

I would absolutely LOVE to be able to adjust the table angle on TPA tables. Reducing the ball 'float' would make the tables much more playable and fun.

 

[msilcommand]

I would absolutely LOVE to be able to adjust the table angle on TPA tables. Reducing the ball 'float' would make the tables much more playable and fun.

There are a few games, such as Taxi, that SEEM to have more table speed due to steeper table angle physics. I don't know what it is attributed to, or if I am imagining it. I definitely avoid the slower, more floaty tables though, and I would also love to be able to adjust the table angle physics.

 

[Citizen]

It would be a welcome option.

I wonder how they would handle leaderboard access with a slider option. They could go Zen's route and have 2 or 3 preset configurations each with a different leaderboard, or they might just do what they did with pro operator menus and take away leaderboard access if you change from the default.

 

[1adam12]

There are a few games, such as Taxi, that SEEM to have more table speed due to steeper table angle physics. I don't know what it is attributed to, or if I am imagining it. I definitely avoid the slower, more floaty tables though, and I would also love to be able to adjust the table angle physics.

Some tables definitely seem to be a bit steeper.

I haven't asked, but I wonder if losing the license would, in theory, allow them a bit more freedom to do things like that. They certainly aren't accountable to Williams at this point. Even if it were a nominal add on, I would consider it.

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[MBeeching]

Table angle adjustments would be interesting, as would custom ball physics. Some of those adjustments would break things but it would fun to mess around and share settings with other users to see what we can come up with. Naturally any changes should disable leaderboard support though it would be possible to organise competitions with like-minded honest players.

 

[Citizen]

Some tables definitely seem to be a bit steeper.

I haven't asked, but I wonder if losing the license would, in theory, allow them a bit more freedom to do things like that. They certainly aren't accountable to Williams at this point. Even if it were a nominal add on, I would consider it.

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I'm not sure it would have violated anything even when they were under license. Adjusting a table's angle isn't the same as a modification.

 

[msilcommand]

It would be a welcome option.

I wonder how they would handle leaderboard access with a slider option. They could go Zen's route and have 2 or 3 preset configurations each with a different leaderboard, or they might just do what they did with pro operator menus and take away leaderboard access if you change from the default.

With TPA, their whole style would make me think they would just keep it all on the same leaderboards, positing that if you opt for a steeper angle, that's just your risk. It may actually be that many people play better on a 7-7.5 angle than on the stock 6.5...and there would be some benefits or drawbacks to scoring on a steeper table just from ball behavior at steeper angles too. So, that would be interesting to see.

With Zen, their 3 modes have stark differences that significantly affect scoring: table upgrades and scripted shots and nearly-magnetic flippers in standard, more natural physics in arcade, and steeper tables and no helpers or xbs in tourn. Without looking, I can guess their 3 boards have different profiles, although arcade and tourn are probably not super different.

 

[MBeeching]

With TPA, their whole style would make me think they would just keep it all on the same leaderboards, positing that if you opt for a steeper angle, that's just your risk. It may actually be that many people play better on a 7-7.5 angle than on the stock 6.5...and there would be some benefits or drawbacks to scoring on a steeper table just from ball behavior at steeper angles too. So, that would be interesting to see.

SPA VR appears to share the same leaderboards as TPA yet the ball physics are noticeably superior/different - My scores are certainly higher! It supports high frame rates but afaik TPA is limited to 67fps, plus there are separate leaderboards for the limited edition cabinets which aren't available on Steam.

 

[msilcommand]

SPA VR appears to share the same leaderboards as TPA yet the ball physics are noticeably superior/different - My scores are certainly higher! It supports high frame rates but afaik TPA is limited to 67fps, plus there are separate leaderboards for the limited edition cabinets which aren't available on Steam.

yeah VR would seem to need a separate leaderboard.

 

[MBeeching]

yeah VR would seem to need a separate leaderboard.

It currently shares leaderboards though, unless you select a limited edition (ACDC/Star Trek/Mustang/Ghostbusters)

 

[msilcommand]

It currently shares leaderboards though, unless you select a limited edition (ACDC/Star Trek/Mustang/Ghostbusters)

Right, which supports my point that they wouldn't have separate leaderboards.

 

[shutyertrap]

I think some of the floatiness of TPA in comparison to Zen Williams physics is that there is no actual ball spin with TPA (despite what you can visually see the ball doing). That means the ball is essentially gliding over the surface, like on ice. Zen on the other hand has actual ball spin and the ball is affected by the friction of the table. For the Williams physics, Mel talked about how they had to play around with different surfaces to get the feel right. So though a steeper table angle might speed up the ball in TPA, it's still going to feel like it is floating above the surface.

 

[dmil666]

I think some of the floatiness of TPA in comparison to Zen Williams physics is that there is no actual ball spin with TPA (despite what you can visually see the ball doing). That means the ball is essentially gliding over the surface, like on ice. Zen on the other hand has actual ball spin and the ball is affected by the friction of the table. For the Williams physics, Mel talked about how they had to play around with different surfaces to get the feel right. So though a steeper table angle might speed up the ball in TPA, it's still going to feel like it is floating above the surface.

That's very interesting. So, in other words the table surface and ball physics would have to change to see a real improvement in play, while a table angle change(a more simple fix?) really wouldn't help much.
Dang.

 

[msilcommand]

I think some of the floatiness of TPA in comparison to Zen Williams physics is that there is no actual ball spin with TPA (despite what you can visually see the ball doing). That means the ball is essentially gliding over the surface, like on ice. Zen on the other hand has actual ball spin and the ball is affected by the friction of the table. For the Williams physics, Mel talked about how they had to play around with different surfaces to get the feel right. So though a steeper table angle might speed up the ball in TPA, it's still going to feel like it is floating above the surface.

True. TPA does have the weight physics of the ball better than FX3, but without spin and realistic reaction to surfaces it does float and doesn't behave as you'd think quite a lot. At least their ball feels like it is made of steal, where Zen made their balls weighted as if they were made of a lighter chromed alloy, and in their Zen tables the ball even feels like its made of solid hard rubber or something. It even sounds like it too.

 

[1adam12]

True. TPA does have the weight physics of the ball better than FX3, but without spin and realistic reaction to surfaces it does float and doesn't behave as you'd think quite a lot. At least their ball feels like it is made of steal, where Zen made their balls weighted as if they were made of a lighter chromed alloy, and in their Zen tables the ball even feels like its made of solid hard rubber or something. It even sounds like it too.

On what platform is this the case?

On iOS I feel like the physics are great, floatiness aside. I've noticed ball spin on more than one occasion. Everything reacts the way one would expect, with few exceptions.

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[msilcommand]

On what platform is this the case?

On iOS I feel like the physics are great, floatiness aside. I've noticed ball spin on more than one occasion. Everything reacts the way one would expect, with few exceptions.

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Their physics logic should be the same across all platforms, but I play on PC and PS4.

 

[trash80]

Their physics logic should be the same across all platforms, but I play on PC and PS4.

It isn't (even table to table is different on some platforms) . Also the "physics" in TPA utilize scripted events, hidden structures and vacuums to facilitate ball movement and material interaction on certain table geometry.

 

[shutyertrap]

It isn't (even table to table is different on some platforms) . Also the "physics" in TPA utilize scripted events, hidden structures and vacuums to facilitate ball movement and material interaction on certain table geometry.

Yep, I was just taking a look at Creature on iOS, and that left ramp is silly with how it sucks up any ball that even comes close to it! This after them making a big deal about making (and generally succeeding) it tougher in a new tuning pass on Steam. That particular term, tuning, was always a table by table application and varied wildly depending on who did it. Flippy_Floppy was the last person to be taking a crack at it, and he is the one who has brought the first few seasons up to par with the later ones. They are just that though, tuning, not new physics, so it's a matter of making the very existence of the 'vacuum ramps' and such not so noticeable despite them still being there.

Zen has said on their original tables there's a bit of this railroad or vacuum aspect in effect simply because they were never designed for the real world and certain physics had to be cheated to make the design work. This is what will prevent them from easily applying the new WMS physics to the tables, as some will just stop working all together.

 

[msilcommand]

It isn't (even table to table is different on some platforms) . Also the "physics" in TPA utilize scripted events, hidden structures and vacuums to facilitate ball movement and material interaction on certain table geometry.

Yeah, I assumed the "physics" are different table to table, because that is the unfortunate reality when you have multiple developers (no two devs code, solve, or workaround the same way). I am a web dev, so I don't have a lot of experience programming across multiple devices, but I do know that our mobile devs will usually try to repurpose or convert as much logic and structure as possible when programming an ios app into android, or visa versa. Game coding is very different, I realize, but I assumed the desire to repurpose must have been there for farsight, no?

Edit: to clarify, I mean are you saying that the core physics logic in, let's say, Black Hole, is different on PS4, PC, mobile, etc? By different, I don't mean adapted necessity-wise to the new language and data, but different as in completely recoded from scratch, maybe by a different dev?