Farsight, we're breaking up - It's not me, it's you...

[night]

Hey everyone! I've been following this thread and can see lots of valid complaints. The main thing that sticks out for me is the comparison to Zaccaria Pinball. The first thing that needs to be said, is that there is plenty of room for more pinball and we are very impressed with the quality they are able to produce. Currently, the emulation is a very taxing process for mobile devices and does not leave much room for improved graphics. Especially when supporting older devices is necessary. That doesn't mean we won't be able to do it in the future.

Hi Mike, just as I wrote before in this thread (and many many others), you should start to bake-in lighting fx and shadows on the texture maps, just like you (Farsight) did on the older tables like Funhouse, Tales of the Arabian Nights, Theatre of Magic. Blaming it on the lack of capacity of the engine is too easy, things could look a lot better if a graphic proffesional will take care of the image maps instead of just applying straight scans on 3D elements. Thanks for your input, I hope things will turn out for the best for all of us.

 

[Scumble373]

Hey everyone! I've been following this thread and can see lots of valid complaints. The main thing that sticks out for me is the comparison to Zaccaria Pinball. The first thing that needs to be said, is that there is plenty of room for more pinball and we are very impressed with the quality they are able to produce. Currently, the emulation is a very taxing process for mobile devices and does not leave much room for improved graphics. Especially when supporting older devices is necessary. That doesn't mean we won't be able to do it in the future.

I've also been glancing over the thread and I'm glad you said this Mike. We already have people complaining about performance being sub-optimal on their device (mostly because there device is old or cluttered). Trying to match the graphical fidelity of Zaccaria Pinball in our game, which has 50+ tables and uses emulation, AND has to run on devices that are still using Android 2.3 isn't feasible. A lot of android games now-a-days are limiting which devices their game runs on to Android 4.x.x, however, this isn't a luxury that we have with a game that's been on the marketplace for years. Don't get me wrong, all of your concerns are valid, but we are limited to what we can do while still having to support older devices.

 

[Baron Rubik]

There aren't any conditional Play Store rules stating you have to support all device's since your apps release.
In fact Google's own advice to developers is to try to support around 90% of the user base, which if you go off the current user stats would mean a min os of 4.0.3 (ICS) upwards.
As long as you put a clear description in the update text stating your OS support, and not to update if still running an older version, that's all I'd personally expect from any developer.
I wouldn't expect support of any current market app for a 4yr old HTC Desire still running Gingerbread.

 

[DA5ID]

I completely understand supporting "lowest common denominator" - but the mobile device tech has moved so quickly I think that bar has moved up significantly. Is it feasible to start thinking about a next gen for the mobile platform? TPA 2.0/XL/HD? We will support you with feedback, love, and $$$

I think zacc will be a good compliment for those of us who are EM fanatics as well as foreign pinball tables. But FARSIGHT you have the licenses for the best pinball tables on the planet - literally a slice of Americana. The representation of these tables should be the best on the market (USA,USA,USA - jk)

 

[Scumble373]

There aren't any conditional Play Store rules stating you have to support all device's since your apps release.
In fact Google's own advice to developers is to try to support around 90% of the user base, which if you go off the current user stats would mean a min os of 4.0.3 (ICS) upwards.
As long as you put a clear description in the update text stating your OS support, and not to update if still running an older version, that's all I'd personally expect from any developer.
I wouldn't expect support of any current market app for a 4yr old HTC Desire still running Gingerbread.

You are 100% right. We don't have to keep supporting older devices, but we choose to because we want as many people as possible to be able to play.

 

[Indy99]

There aren't any conditional Play Store rules stating you have to support all device's since your apps release.
In fact Google's own advice to developers is to try to support around 90% of the user base, which if you go off the current user stats would mean a min os of 4.0.3 (ICS) upwards.
As long as you put a clear description in the update text stating your OS support, and not to update if still running an older version, that's all I'd personally expect from any developer.
I wouldn't expect support of any current market app for a 4yr old HTC Desire still running Gingerbread.

Completely agree. If the reason you are not giving 90%+ of your userbase new features / better graphics just because you still want to support the <10% of users on Gingerbread, that just doesnt make sense. Maybe its time to draw a line in the sand - say with the completion of Season 4, only Android 4.03 (maybe even 4.1) and up will continue to be supported. While I commend the commitent to odler devices, at some point you have to embrace the future. And the number of GB devices is falling every month.

 

[Kratos3]

TPA still has the tables I want to play, and I'm able to play them on multiple platforms.

That being said, I'd like to see Farsight announce minimum requirements for mobile devices (iOS for me) that allows for higher performance builds that take advantage of more recent devices. Trying to keep iPad 1 and iPhone 4s users is just going to hurt the product.

 

[xAzatothx]

Scott - do you have any stats showing number of users still on older platforms and actively still playing?

 

[Baron Rubik]

Current Google User OS stats.
(obviously not linked to number of FS players)

As Indy points out, this is simply crazy to hold 80odd percent of your customers back to remain giving a tiny percentage of users current support. It gives you no chance of a future.

I personally see this support claim as a screen or excuse for what essentially can only be explained as bad quality and poor execution, and an excuse to not add features.
Take Black Knight for example, no Rom emulation there to worry about, but it still shipped with scripting bugs, meshing issues, and horrendous artwork (ps3 colouring). We've even had tables ship with the flippers not central to the table(Victory).

 

[superballs]

You are 100% right. We don't have to keep supporting older devices, but we choose to because we want as many people as possible to be able to play.

Of course I have no data to back this up, but I would imagine you are probably alienating more of your userbase by having your software be able to run on such old devices than you would be by improving the game to the point where you actually need a reasonable device to run it.

I've been around since the beginning of TPA, I've been a ravenous fan since the beginning, but frankly, I'm just pinballed out. But at the same time, what as TPA done to combat me being pinballed out? Where are the PC tourneys? Why can't I nudge upward using shake nudging? Why are two year old bugs not addressed? Why is Black Knight still not emulated?

Honestly, I have no real complaints about the graphics. Some tables, mind you really need to be worked on, but others look great. Yes lighting and shadows could look a lot better, especially on PC, which has been promised for quite some time, even with DX9, the lighting could be a lot better.

Flippers, really come on, aside from the android pinball apps that are borderline scams, I think TPA has among the worst flipper physics I've ever played with in recent and not so recent memory. Flippers in the game are full speed the second they start moving, if they move so much as a millimeter they launch the ball as fast as they would swinging a full arch.

If you look through my post history, I like to think that I'm one of the people on here that are more than fair to you guys, leaning toward fanboyism. I do, and have had my complaints, and I definitely will joke about the common complaints. I really do like your product, but I've not purchased anything from season 4. Not because I don't want to, or haven't thought of it, but because I don't feel compelled to with my currently limited funds for video games, and you guys are now competing with Nintendo for my gaming dollar for the most part.

I personally recommend you guys have some folks start addressing the more common and more serious concerns because they are starting to look like they are contributing to the decline of TPA. The honeymoon is over and has been for a bit. In some ways you guys are really on the ball, but it's obvious that some of your more hardcore fans are losing faith.

 

[night]

You are 100% right. We don't have to keep supporting older devices, but we choose to because we want as many people as possible to be able to play.

Bake-in lighting fx and shadows. No comments on this? Why was it done on the older tables? Bride of Pinbot, bake-in lighting fx and shadows. FH, ToM, TotAN. But the newer tables go all over the place, why the inconsistency? This isn't just an engine problem.

 

[IGoFirstIndy]

I'd love to try yours too when you feel ready to share them.
I'd love to find a perfect combo of authentic, but challenging.

+1

I'd love a thread devoted to just user physics for specify tables.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Bake-in lighting fx and shadows. No comments on this? Why was it done on the older tables? Bride of Pinbot, bake-in lighting fx and shadows. FH, ToM, TotAN. But the newer tables go all over the place, why the inconsistency? This isn't just an engine problem.

To be fair, [MENTION=4573]Scumble373[/MENTION] only joined Farsight in the middle of last year, as an Android programmer. He's done a lot of good work with the Android userbase in that time, including making what tweaks are within his power to graphical settings (ramp opacity on NGG and Cactus Canyon, for instance). However his hands are tied when it comes to full table makeovers - that belongs in the realm of the art department. He can request stuff from them, that's all. Given that some assets are shared between platforms, I'm willing to bet that the baked-in lighting effects were removed when advanced/dynamic lighting started to be implemented for PS4/XONE and eventually DX11 for PC.

 

[Baron Rubik]

Criticisms of Farsight and the TPA product obviously aren't aimed at specific individuals. Just done to try to drive improvement, or vent some frustration.

Thanks Mike and Scott for chiming in. We all know you don't have to do so.

 

[night]

To be fair, [MENTION=4573]Scumble373[/MENTION] only joined Farsight in the middle of last year, as an Android programmer. He's done a lot of good work with the Android userbase in that time, including making what tweaks are within his power to graphical settings (ramp opacity on NGG and Cactus Canyon, for instance). However his hands are tied when it comes to full table makeovers - that belongs in the realm of the art department. He can request stuff from them, that's all. Given that some assets are shared between platforms, I'm willing to bet that the baked-in lighting effects were removed when advanced/dynamic lighting started to be implemented for PS4/XONE and eventually DX11 for PC.

Good points, and nothing personal to the employees.

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

Completely agree. If the reason you are not giving 90%+ of your userbase new features / better graphics just because you still want to support the <10% of users on Gingerbread, that just doesnt make sense. Maybe its time to draw a line in the sand - say with the completion of Season 4, only Android 4.03 (maybe even 4.1) and up will continue to be supported. While I commend the commitent to odler devices, at some point you have to embrace the future. And the number of GB devices is falling every month.

Just curious. Is it ok to stop supporting older hardware for people who have paid for an app? So someone purchased something, gets an update and can no longer play?

I've been prepping a DX11 release on Steam, and in doing so I accidentally broke the build on Windows XP. According to Steam, as of January 2014, Windows XP only makes up 6% of users. But I had over a dozen people say the game stopped working for them. Would it be fair to tell them, we no longer support XP so your game you purchased will no longer run?

 

[Robert Misner]

I'll add in my 2cents and say yes it is...
However...I'd think it would be abit better if it was announced well ahead of the update that this update was no longer supporting WindowsXP and they'll need to decide if they are ready to update for new features.
The ability to play without updating should be an option tho for some period of time.
Perhaps saying no XP support after season 4 wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation so the company can move forward.

windows 10 will be free for windows 7 and 8 users btw..its time the pc world moved on.

 

[jaredmorgs]

Just curious. Is it ok to stop supporting older hardware for people who have paid for an app? So someone purchased something, gets an update and can no longer play?

I've been prepping a DX11 release on Steam, and in doing so I accidentally broke the build on Windows XP. According to Steam, as of January 2014, Windows XP only makes up 6% of users. But I had over a dozen people say the game stopped working for them. Would it be fair to tell them, we no longer support XP so your game you purchased will no longer run?

Zen Pinball had to make this decision over a year ago to ensure their mobile game engine was able to maintain standard with modern technology (check their forums for the communications). They announced they were cutting support for a particular Android version and making the baseline Android 4.0.4.

They ran an open campaign telling users they were doing this, and refunded all purchases if the user requested them.

I understand Zen is a big studio, and they may have been in a financial position to do this. I don't know what impact this would have on FarSight. I would imagine that a program of this nature would need to be be budgeted and planned to coincide with a Season Pass round.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Windows Server 2003 is end - of - life in July 2015. This is the server equivalent of XP. I think it would be fair to fully drop XP support then. 3-4 months' notice is reasonable.

Same for Android, same for iOS, same for any platform or OS. Some people will cry foul and so on but the majority will be fine.

Ultimately though these kinds of decisions are not made by programmers.

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

FYI, I didn't know that if you stop supporting a version on android the user can still keep what they have, they just can't upgrade. On Steam if someone would upgrade the app would no longer run.

Also, MS stopped supporting XP last year in April.