I hate Stern

[karl]

I haven't really played a modern Stern, except for Ripley's (Like it) and Harley Davidson (Which is my least favorite "modern" table) in TPA. My general impression of Stern is this (except for Ripley's) is that they are all sorta generic feeling, it's a little bit like how I feel about Pinball FX tables. They all have potential, but the design is so drab for whatever reason. I think the best looking tables are the ones with punchy colors, and beautiful graphics/designs: Big Bang Bar, Pinbot, etc.

Now.. Stern made one of my favorite arcade games: Berzerk! I think I will always remember them for that more than for Pinball. I think of Williams first.

And you are basing all that on HD??? Sorry but if Ripley and HD is the only ones you have played and you liked Ripley, how can you possibly judge the rest? PS! HD is originally a Sega machine that got released again by Stern so HD has very little to do with later Stern games. Let's just say I disagree with a lot of what you are saying here ( I don't even dare go into the Pinball FX comparison )

My view is that the build quality and the money shortcuts make Stern games inferior to WMS but the design and rules are done by some of the best in the business. The same guy who gave us the rules for MM, AFM etc is the main programmer with Stern now, so I can't see what they can do different in that department.

 

[jkonami]

And you are basing all that on HD??? Sorry but if Ripley and HD is the only ones you have played and you liked Ripley, how can you possibly judge the rest? PS! HD is originally a Sega machine that got released again by Stern so HD has very little to do with later Stern games. Let's just say I disagree with a lot of what you are saying here ( I don't even dare go into the Pinball FX comparison )

My view is that the build quality and the money shortcuts make Stern games inferior to WMS but the design and rules are done by some of the best in the business. The same guy who gave us the rules for MM, AFM etc is the main programmer with Stern now, so I can't see what they can do different in that department.

I'm not judging them at all, except to say when I see a Stern table, I'm not really all that drawn in by it's visual design. Just from an aesthetic point of view purely. I have never even seen one in the wild to play, or I would maybe give it a go. HD is just an example, I didn't know it wasn't originally a Stern. It was just one of the two Stern branded tables I've played, and only in TPA. I haven't played more than demos of PBFX2, either, but the comparison is not about the gameplay (I don't really know either way) but about the look and theme - now that I look back on my comment, I should have said "They are sorta generic looking" instead of feeling, sorry about that. But I stand by my impression based on how much I want to play them (which is not much), which I think is important for an arcade game of any kind. I don't really care for the licenses, either - an original table theme with a unique artist that integrates the table art strongly with the ruleset would make a much more desirable game for me.

 

[Kolchak357]

I enjoy playing a lot of Stern pins. They usually have a fun toy or two and you are just about guarenteed at least one try at multiball. They don't feel as solid as a classic Williams or a WOZ, and they use a lot of cheesy looking clip art, but it doesn't kill the experience for me.
They are fun for a beginner, yet there is enough there for the more serious player too. My only concern is the recent trend of incomplete code. But I still play them when I see them.

 

[superballs]

Got to play AC/DC on Tuesday for the first time.

Popped a free game on my first game, made some stupid mistakes on my second. Overall I thought it was great fun.

 

[vikingerik]

But they're overall... well, bland. Multiballs don't feel climactic like they were back in the day, etc.

This nails my feelings on Stern, at least after TSPP and LOTR. The Williams tables have a certain... joyous revelry is the best way I can describe it. I think it's largely in the speech quotes. When Attack From Mars yells out "Total Annihilation... WOOHOO!" or "Super Jackpot, OH BABY!", you can really feel the fun and passion exuding from the design team. The Williams tables truly draw the player into the experience and heighten your mood. It's like the machine is cheering you along. The king of the trope is probably Monster Bash, where everything you do spawns some excitement from one of the monsters.

The Stern tables of recent years don't recapture this. I haven't played them all, but many like Dark Knight, Elvis, Tron Legacy, Avatar, AC/DC mostly feel like they're ticking a checklist of requirements from the source material. They offer little sense of joy on accomplishing something big. It's more like you got a task done at work and now it's on to the next assignment. The machine isn't excited for you, it sounds more like a dispassionate anchorman reciting your news. The absolute low point here was of course Wheel of Fortune, just a lousy mailed-in mood with no fun at all. They're there to consume your quarters, not to entertain you.

Williams games go "I'm howling at the moon tonight!" Stern games go "2 More For Multiball."

The big exceptions for Stern are TSPP and LOTR of course. Smashing the Balrog or stacking up a ton of multiballs are every bit as awesome as in the peak Williams games. A few other earlier Sterns also felt good and cheerful - Austin Powers, Monopoly, Sopranos. So I think the Stern deficiency is mostly in the multimedia experience, not the core pinballing. The playfields and rules for the modern Stern games are still fine, aside from the arguments over missing wizard modes. But there's just not as much production value in the sound and video. The "always display the score" policy is a miss IMO, it really cuts down on the feeling and expression of BIGNESS when called for.

Mechanically, Stern is just as good as Williams. I don't perceive any meaningful difference in the quality or feel. I probably couldn't identify the flippers of each company if a blind test were possible. Every pinball machine will suffer weak flippers and broken switches if unmaintained. If Williams games seem more reliable, that's probably selection bias due to age. 20 years later you only see the outliers of WMS games that have been well cared for, but still see newer Sterns installed on locations everywhere and left to rot.

That all said, Stern delivering B+ tables is still better than no Stern at all, so I hope they stay around.

 

[Clawhammer]

The big exceptions for Stern are TSPP and LOTR of course.

I have to agree. For me though, the appeal of those two games is Keith Johnson's code, not the build quality or even the layout.

 

[Shaneus]

I enjoy playing a lot of Stern pins. They usually have a fun toy or two and you are just about guarenteed at least one try at multiball. They don't feel as solid as a classic Williams or a WOZ, and they use a lot of cheesy looking clip art, but it doesn't kill the experience for me.
They are fun for a beginner, yet there is enough there for the more serious player too. My only concern is the recent trend of incomplete code. But I still play them when I see them.

Does WOZ seriously feel more like a WMS table than a Stern? Oh god, I have to find one (in Australia somewhere :/).

 

[Kolchak357]

Does WOZ seriously feel more like a WMS table than a Stern? Oh god, I have to find one (in Australia somewhere :/).

Very solid feel, a noticeable difference compared to modern Sterns. They also feel very heavy when you try to nudge them. Everyone mentions the backglass, but I don't look at the backglass very often when playing. I was more impressed with the lighting, sound, and overall feel. I'm not a big fan of the theme, but I'm very interested in the Hobbit JJ is making next. Definitely check it out if there is one near you.

 

[Sumez]

vikingerik makes a good point, and I never really thought about it before.

I don't think it's a specific Stern thing though, a lot of WMS tables are the same - but the most memorable ones of them, really care about matching their callouts and animations feeding an increasing enthusiasm with the player. When playing Monster Bash it's not unlikely for me to shout along to "Suuuupeeer jackpooot baby!" or "It's aliiiiive!", or "Whiiite waaaateeeeer!" when WH2O's multiball starts. It's stuff like that that gets me really bounce and into the game, when playing standing by a real table, and it actually tends to make me play better!

I actually can't think of a single Stern table that has this, not TSPP or LOTR either. Metallica's multiball start has a taste of it, but it's horribly long and some times you really miss being able to skip it using both flippers.

 

[Punisher]

Who can forget that infamous "DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR *BOOM*" from TZ?

 

[SpiffyRob]

WOZ is a sight to behold. If you play in a location with the operator present, ask if they'll lift the playfield and checkout the underside.

On the whole, yeah, WOZ feels more like a B/W. One thing that is very unlike B/W AND Stern tables: The slings are nearly silent when they fire.

 

[Sumez]

What's special about the WOZ underside? I haven't seen it.

 

[netizen]

apparently it glows from all the lights :/

Maybe there's something else special though?

 

[Espy]

I really want to play WoZ now. It's just a shame that when I spoke to my local operator about it, his words were "It's an beautiful machine, but where could I site it... a gay bar?"

He said he'll get a Hobbit, though, so hopefully that will be to the same quality.

 

[Shaneus]

Very solid feel, a noticeable difference compared to modern Sterns. They also feel very heavy when you try to nudge them. Everyone mentions the backglass, but I don't look at the backglass very often when playing. I was more impressed with the lighting, sound, and overall feel. I'm not a big fan of the theme, but I'm very interested in the Hobbit JJ is making next. Definitely check it out if there is one near you.

Man, that's great to hear! I don't pay much attention to the backglass either so that won't be a factor at all... but it gives me hope that with WoZ being super-solid, hopefully Full Throttle will be as well!

From what I can see, I hope they don't go the full-TV route like they did with WoZ for Hobbit... I despise the over-reliance of the DMD to convey information that should be on the playfield, and it looks like with backbox TVs we're going even further in the wrong direction.

At least Heighway have the right idea, though!

 

[Espy]

I really wish Heighway didn't go with such a painfully generic theme. It lacks character. I know they had to change the theme, but it could have been implemented a lot better.

Is that a reversed outlane on the left? That's pretty cool.

 

[Slam23]

A few months ago I played Stern's Metallica and WOZ besides each other, and came away impressed by the solid feel of WOZ and disappointed by the "cheaper" feel of Metallica in comparison. That said, when I recently got the chance to play some other recent Sterns like Star Trek, Tron and AC/DC, I did like the feel of Star Trek and Tron, not so much AC/DC. This could mean that I don't like pins that deal with bands, but on a more serious note that quality between Sterns (and probably personal preference) varies. Overall I get the impression that Stern in recent years made a choice to simplify tables somewhat to attract a broad audience and thereby maybe alienating some home owners that usually are very particular about their tables and have a lot of playing experience and knowledge. Maybe JJP will challenge that business scheme in the long run, and have started off quite convincingly with WOZ. I for one hope that both companies are succesful and motivate each other to up the quality!

 

[Slam23]

Man, that's great to hear! I don't pay much attention to the backglass either so that won't be a factor at all... but it gives me hope that with WoZ being super-solid, hopefully Full Throttle will be as well!

From what I can see, I hope they don't go the full-TV route like they did with WoZ for Hobbit... I despise the over-reliance of the DMD to convey information that should be on the playfield, and it looks like with backbox TVs we're going even further in the wrong direction.

At least Heighway have the right idea, though!

From what I know the plan with WOZ is to update the software to the point that there is more integration between the LCD information and the playfield, primarily by using GI lighting to point the player towards goals and such. I'm also a fan of tables that provide me with playfield clues as what next to do. In time you learn the rules by heart and you have to rely less on DMD/LCD or playfield clues, then it's less of an issue. I would really like to try out how a playfield monitor works out, I figure it could also be a distraction while playing?

 

[Shaneus]

From what I know the plan with WOZ is to update the software to the point that there is more integration between the LCD information and the playfield, primarily by using GI lighting to point the player towards goals and such. I'm also a fan of tables that provide me with playfield clues as what next to do. In time you learn the rules by heart and you have to rely less on DMD/LCD or playfield clues, then it's less of an issue. I would really like to try out how a playfield monitor works out, I figure it could also be a distraction while playing?

I find it more distracting to have to shift your focus to see what your score is or other information about the game that should've been implemented clearly on the playfield but wasn't

But that's good to hear about WOZ and better lighting/game info. Would still help if games weren't all that damn complicated in the first place. Maybe Steve Ritchie should team up with JJ to knock out an original-theme machine. It'd be straightforward, not *too* deep, fast and have hella-awesome build quality (going by this thread).

I really wish Heighway didn't go with such a painfully generic theme. It lacks character. I know they had to change the theme, but it could have been implemented a lot better.

This is true. I wasn't a fan of their original idea at all, but whilst I like what they've gone with to an extent with FT, they could've jazzed it up a bit. For example: "Some car chase pin" or "HIGH SPEED". But I dunno, maybe it feels like it has more personality when you play it.

I'm dead keen on hunting one down for a play, though. I love the simplistic, flowy design and the LCD *in* the playfield (probably more than any other innovation in pinball in the last 15 years).

 

[superballs]

Who can forget that infamous "DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'T TOUCH THE DOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR DON'TTOUCHTHEDOOR *BOOM*" from TZ?

The Getaway has one of the best multiball intros ever.