More deep rulesets, please!

[Carl Spiby]

You just can't get that feeling on digital pinball though, even on wizard modes like LITZ, its far too relaxed compared to the real thing.

 

[JPelter]

You just can't get that feeling on digital pinball though, even on wizard modes like LITZ, its far too relaxed compared to the real thing.

Definitely. I should clarify that everything I typed is about TPA, not real tables. Some of what I said applies to actual tables as well, but most of it is a function of how TPA is designed.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Saying "that there are a lot of rules does not mean that you must follow these" isn't really relevant since the games work a certain way and playing outside of how they were designed isn't really something that you can do.

Some of the complex machines are well-balanced enough that they do allow you to play the whole machine as a viable strategy: The Simpsons Pinball Party, Lord of the Rings, AC/DC, and to a lesser extent Twilight Zone (a real TZ has much less friendly ramps, and the left ramp-right ramp-piano sequence is much harder to pull off). AC/DC even lets you explicitly tell it how you want to play by your choice of songs.

Not surprisingly, I own two of these machines, and am looking to acquire the other two. Also unsurprising is the fact that these complex balanced machines tend to be highly-regarded. Players like having options and not being pigeonholed into playing one feature over and over.

EDIT: And yet I still enjoy the occasional EM/early-SS game as well. Sometimes after a marathon session, a quick game on a machine that offers a simple "pure" pinball experience is just what the doctor ordered.

 

[JPelter]

Some of the complex machines are well-balanced enough that they do allow you to play the whole machine as a viable strategy: The Simpsons Pinball Party, Lord of the Rings, AC/DC, and to a lesser extent Twilight Zone (a real TZ has much less friendly ramps, and the left ramp-right ramp-piano sequence is much harder to pull off). AC/DC even lets you explicitly tell it how you want to play by your choice of songs.

Not surprisingly, I own two of these machines, and am looking to acquire the other two. Also unsurprising is the fact that these complex balanced machines tend to be highly-regarded. Players like having options and not being pigeonholed into playing one feature over and over.

EDIT: And yet I still enjoy the occasional EM/early-SS game as well. Sometimes after a marathon session, a quick game on a machine that offers a simple "pure" pinball experience is just what the doctor ordered.

I didn't really mean that there's only one way to play the table rules-wise with that comment. I meant more that EM tables play a lot differently as a whole due to ball speeds/how flippers work/general lack of ramps. You can't get the same gameplay experience on modern tables even if you ignore all the rulesets. I probably wasn't clear enough on that. Also, again, this only applies to TPA mainly because hitting your shots is a whole lot easier. The main difference is that on EM tables even if you hit your shots chances are you're in danger right away anyway.

In a lot of ways TotAN is more similar to EM tables than any other modern table on TPA due to that. The center ramp is the only truly safe shot in the game, and it isn't used enough to become a viable scoring alternative on its own. Everything else can punish you if you're not ready, and sometimes even if you are.

 

[Shaneus]

More rules = less flow (in general)*
Hence, I prefer mid-late 80s System 11 titles

*I know there are a number of newer ones that are more open and flowy as of late (namely AC/DC and to a lesser extent, Metallica) and have moderately deep rulesets, but in general the alphanumerics were king of these kinds of games.

 

[Mick Morry]

The more modern the table is...the deeper and more abundant the missions, awards, and challenges become. This is one of the main reasons why so many new tables are being begged for in the various forums by people. As much as I love the older tables I have to admit I adore the tables with the deep challenges and mission modes. Tables like Monster Bash, Ripley's and Twilight Zone are always going to be my favorite.

 

[Sumez]

More rules = less flow (in general)*
Hence, I prefer mid-late 80s System 11 titles

*I know there are a number of newer ones that are more open and flowy as of late (namely AC/DC and to a lesser extent, Metallica) and have moderately deep rulesets, but in general the alphanumerics were king of these kinds of games.

Dude, play any game by Steve Ritchie! This goes for both his 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's and most recent tables! The ruleset has absolutely no impact on this.

 

[Mayuh]

'Flowy' tables, esp. in TPA totally mess up my ability to play controlled in RL I used to play taxi, demoman in a really controlled way - some rbion or AFM on TPA and I need to relearn to cradle

 

[Shaneus]

Dude, play any game by Steve Ritchie! This goes for both his 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's and most recent tables! The ruleset has absolutely no impact on this.

Yeah, having thought about it... I'm pretty sure all Ritchie tables are like that, with some more complicated than others (obviously) but the most complicated not holding a candle to anything with a moderately deep ruleset (even like AfM or MM).

I guess it was just a lot easier to find games when they didn't have a DMD to list modes and stuff with. System 11/Steve Ritchie fo' lyfe

 

[smbhax]

I can only speak for myself here but the main reasons I like the old games are:
a) The older tables are usually punishingly difficult even in TPA, so games don't go on for hours. As long as we can't have tournament rule leaderboards with no extra balls and harder playfield settings it's much more fun to play those. Games like ripley and twilight zone you can literally play for 8 hours+ because once you know the danger areas you know they're not important for scoring and the game becomes a test of stamina.

b) Related to the above, but old tables take me to a significantly different mindset where instead of absolute ball control you try to figure out the statistics on which shots are the most likely to drain and try to avoid them, while also needing to figure out trajectories usually a second or more in advance so you can nudge them away from drains before it's too late. You also usually need to do this all while the ball is constantly active since being able to trap up is much harder in a majority of older games.

Saying "that there are a lot of rules does not mean that you must follow these" isn't really relevant since the games work a certain way and playing outside of how they were designed isn't really something that you can do. I mean EM machines are fundamentally very different from modern games even outside of the rulesets.

I know there are exceptions on both sides. STTNG and TotAN are very difficult modern tables. Black Hole, while not being an EM table is also not a modern style one and is relatively easy.

I guess the short version is that it isn't really about the depth of the rulesets as much as the fact that I prefer the older games for the different challenge they offer, and a vast majority of the games with deep rulesets don't have the same kinds of challenges. Even in the cases where the difficulty is similar to EM the gameplay overall isn't.

I <3 this post. : ) The thing I love about the old tables is that it really was about the individual shots and surviving them each time to continue scoring; every single shot is an adventure, whereas with modern tables you have to spend a lot of time building up to something--usually just yet another multiball bonanza, in which you're entirely safe--with almost completely safe shots where you watch the ball drift along a nice little ramp back to your flipper while a cartoon plays on the screen. The old tables--the good ones among them, I mean--were much more about kinetics and direct reactions to every shot, and almost every shot had its own kind of immediate payoff. Give me the old bells and spinners and danger every second!

Although I am less keen on a significant chunk of the older tables we've had so far: Big Shot is too focused on just those two big banks of drop targets (and exploiting the 3x bonus on ball 5), Black Hole *is* very slow with just grinding out bonus on those annoying inverted mini flippers (this works better in real life; in TPA it's just too easily repetitive), and Gorgar's scoring is way lopsided, you just shoot the lower hole over and over. There are much more interesting old tables I'd have preferred to see, but I suppose we'll get to those eventually. : )

 

[Dumpstar]

My favorites are around the Diner, Fish Tales, Taxi sort of rule sets. Not too deep, but challenging in it's own way.

 

[David Pannozzo]

I have to say I hate Electro-Mechanical pinball machines, I last about 5 seconds and it's game over. I have broke two of my controllers playing Big Shot, to me the game gives you know chance. If Farsight can put out an EM that I can play then I will play it, otherwise I pick games from Pinbot and up to the Wizard of Oz. Sorry for the rant, I at least wish the people who made the EM machines could have at least put something in their so you wouldn't have a immediate drain. I guess back then they didn't think of that, so has games got better they started to help people like me who have a hard time playing Pinball Machines. I love Pinball because of all the Lights, Music, voices, sounds and just plain fun, again nothing against EM players. It's just me, I want to have fun with the EM games but it doesn't work. I do like the idea of having a pack with a recent game, along with an older game, and maybe I'll find an EM that's nice to me and has some good flash to it. Okay I'm done, of course that's just my two cents, I didn't play pinball until The Addam's Family came out. I do like system 11 games a lot.

 

[Shaneus]

I <3 this post. : ) The thing I love about the old tables is that it really was about the individual shots and surviving them each time to continue scoring; every single shot is an adventure, whereas with modern tables you have to spend a lot of time building up to something--usually just yet another multiball bonanza, in which you're entirely safe--with almost completely safe shots where you watch the ball drift along a nice little ramp back to your flipper while a cartoon plays on the screen. The old tables--the good ones among them, I mean--were much more about kinetics and direct reactions to every shot, and almost every shot had its own kind of immediate payoff. Give me the old bells and spinners and danger every second!

Although I am less keen on a significant chunk of the older tables we've had so far: Big Shot is too focused on just those two big banks of drop targets (and exploiting the 3x bonus on ball 5), Black Hole *is* very slow with just grinding out bonus on those annoying inverted mini flippers (this works better in real life; in TPA it's just too easily repetitive), and Gorgar's scoring is way lopsided, you just shoot the lower hole over and over. There are much more interesting old tables I'd have preferred to see, but I suppose we'll get to those eventually. : )

Hence why I want more Ritchie tables. Even the DMD games are relatively simplistic! But regardless of designer, we definitely need more of Systems 9-11.

I just had a quick tally, and there are 34 games that would fit into that bracket. So far, we have:
Space Shuttle
Pinbot
Taxi
Party Monsters
Whirlwind
Dr. Dude

Too damn lopsided :/

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Yeah! Rollergames, Transporter, Cyclone! They're some of my favorites!

 

[Nightwing]

Hence why I want more Ritchie tables. Even the DMD games are relatively simplistic! But regardless of designer, we definitely need more of Systems 9-11.

I just had a quick tally, and there are 34 games that would fit into that bracket. So far, we have:
Space Shuttle
Pinbot
Taxi
Party Monsters
Whirlwind
Dr. Dude

Too damn lopsided :/

I completely agree. I'd go so far to say that once FS has finished with the PHOF tables,if they are still going to do two pins a month - that a SS Williams be one of them.