New Stern Pinball Arcade: AC/DC Kickstarter is FULLY FUNDED!!!

[kinggo]

it's not the price. It's Stern, I don't find their games much better than those from DE/SEGA time. Sure, some are great but generally they are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from Midway(Bally)/Williams. And artwork on most of them is terrible. Plus, they tend to break way sooner than those from 90's. TWD was broken 3 weeks after arrival and there isn't so many people here that play pinball anymore. Kudos for keeping pinball alive but somehow that's not like it was. Better than Premier but still, something about them rubs me the wrong way. Apart from the fact that I don't even like or care for more than half of their themes. I would really like to be proven wrong and that as a game this will be better than TPA on mobile.

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

it's not the price. It's Stern, I don't find their games much better than those from DE/SEGA time. Sure, some are great but generally they are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from Midway(Bally)/Williams. And artwork on most of them is terrible. Plus, they tend to break way sooner than those from 90's. TWD was broken 3 weeks after arrival and there isn't so many people here that play pinball anymore. Kudos for keeping pinball alive but somehow that's not like it was. Better than Premier but still, something about them rubs me the wrong way. Apart from the fact that I don't even like or care for more than half of their themes. I would really like to be proven wrong and that as a game this will be better than TPA on mobile.

Personally, I think the recent Sterns are fantastic machines. The rulesets keep getting better and they are very enjoyable. The main problem I have with them IRL is the build quality. Except for the Limited Editions, they feel very cheaply made and they are always having issues. Pretty much every week in the pinball league I belong to, one or more of the machines has to be taken out because of some stupid physical problem. This is where Farsight's apps really shine, because the machines are always in pristine condition and working order.

 

[vikingerik]

They have obviously announced several tables from TPA are getting released on STPA, and I would expect the new physics on those and any others they decide to bring into the new app in the same way they did when going from Williams Hall of Fame to TPA.

I would not expect this. They won't do effort they don't need to do. SST and Frankenstein already have serviceable physics and Farsight won't bother tuning them over again. It doesn't matter if they're flagship demo tables to launch the new app. TOTAN, ToM, and Ripley's never got any physics overhauls as TPA's own core tables, just some slight railroad tweaks.

I also don't expect "4.0" to be any real improvements, just more slight refinements to flipper behavior as 3.0 was. I don't expect 4.0 to do anything significant like ball spin or proper flipper acceleration and mass.

The one possible exception to all that is if Farsight does import a physics package from Visual Pinball or somewhere else. I'm hoping Stern demands this. I think that's the only way Farsight would invest the effort. If this does happen, then yes I would expect they'd do it for all the SPA tables.

 

[Garycope]

You would need over 10,000 $10 donors to reach the goal

 

[Locksley]

Since it is a STERN based product I guess there wont be a TPA2 where they will essentially start redoing 'all' the tables in less artifact in the graphics maner. They could do it, many release a new version for full price every other year...

It will be fun to play RBION and see and feel the difference from TPA - but for the love of the pixie in the sky, give S1 & S2 some love in TPA. New pictures with the new camera - and maybe some trickle over from the physics4, that would be nice.

I'm in. Like the table, like a new engine (fingers crossed).

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

Since it is a STERN based product I guess there wont be a TPA2 where they will essentially start redoing 'all' the tables in less artifact in the graphics maner. They could do it, many release a new version for full price every other year...

It will be fun to play RBION and see and feel the difference from TPA - but for the love of the pixie in the sky, give S1 & S2 some love in TPA. New pictures with the new camera - and maybe some trickle over from the physics4, that would be nice.

I'm in. Like the table, like a new engine (fingers crossed).

Who holds the rights to those Williams/Bally tables? I think Stern does (maybe not)? So we may see some of the more popular tables ported over. I guess the issues preventing that would be that they may not have the CAD files (in whatever format the new tables are designed) for conversion, and they probably still can't just bake the code into the new engine without emulation.

 

[Pinhead45]

So far no one's mentioned a release date for the starter pack 4 tables for Stern Pinball Arcade. It seems if Ghostbusters is coming in the fall and it's not a launch table, possibly this summer the launch will happen. I'm thinking what date stands out and I keep coming up with California Extreme in mid July. It will be awesome to see the modern stern tables on this app. Can't wait to see GOT or TWD as it sounds like at least no kickstarter is needed so far for anything after Star Trek. TWD was mentioned in the kickstarter video.

Now I don't know how a table like Ripley's will sell after it has already been released on TPA. They probably need to bundle those with something newer or something unseen like Baywatch or TFTC. Somehow I see all future release of Sega, Data East, and Stern tables on this Stern app or they will have not that much to release. TPA still has plenty of tables with Williams, Bally and Gottlieb, so I don't see how it would suffer too much. It sounds like the best of both worlds and Farsight can maximize it's earning potential. They might have to increase staff though.

 

[soundwave106]

I would not expect this. They won't do effort they don't need to do. SST and Frankenstein already have serviceable physics and Farsight won't bother tuning them over again. It doesn't matter if they're flagship demo tables to launch the new app. TOTAN, ToM, and Ripley's never got any physics overhauls as TPA's own core tables, just some slight railroad tweaks.

Personally, I speculate that some of the "railroading" (especially Season 1 and 2) is more deliberate table tweaks to make the tables a bit easier, to try and attract more casual players. I've certainly heard my share of *both* "this is way too easy" and "this is way too hard" out of TPA, even the "easiest" seasons (1 and 2). This shows how hard it is to balance this.

Yes, the physics engine is not Pro Pinball, but keep in mind, Pro Pinball's has had nearly three years of development time table for just one table. (Possibly more to be honest since it *still* is in early access.) That's a lot more time to tweak engines and add features vs. ramming out tables. Makes business sense, you rarely hear a Facebook post on TPA that says something like "please implement more realistic ball spin", it's mostly table requests, after all. Different markets.

 

[Tann]

Here's what I think happened. I think they intended to retrofit the finer flipper behavior that we see on new tables into the older ones. That would require table-by-table tweaking to make sure all the shots were still makeable. And then I think they never did that, but just retrofitted only the drop and live catches (because that didn't need table-by-table tweaking because it doesn't affect shooting), and decided to call that "Physics 3.0" anyway. And people believed that and never realized Farsight didn't follow through with the earlier intent because nobody studies railroads in the depth that I do.

[...]But only new tables since Xenon behave that way. The bounciness was never changed in old tables pre-Xenon*.

In other words, "Physics 3.0" consists of both drop/live catches and tweaks to flipper smoothness and bounciness. Only the former got applied to the old tables. But Farsight has been claiming "3.0 on all tables" even though that only includes the catches and not other tweaks.

Oh boy, thanks for this informative post, vikingerik. Your theory seems totally possible, knowing Farsight tendency to make false promises.

Well, if the the Physics 3.0 just adds live catch & tip passes on older tables, not improving the flipper rubber bounciness (like on the post-Xenon tables), this is REALLY REALLY DISAPPOINTING.

So basically, T2 ball physics on flippers is still crappy, even with 3.0?

It doesn't look like it bounces any more off the flippers. It kinda looks like it does drop faster, but by a small enough margin that the perception could be attributable to differences in frame rate or lighting or video capturing or whatever between the platforms.

Given your theory above, yeah, it seems the bounciness is the same. For the speed drop, I'm pretty convinced there's a difference, as there's a noticeable difference when I play a post-Xenon table on PS3 (well, post-Cyclone to be more precise) that has 3.0, and then an older table. The ball gains definitely some velocity when it drops from the top of the table (it's the first thing I notice/feel when playing a recent table), whereas it has a constant drop speed on older tables.

The question now, is to know if this "drop speed variation" has been implemented on older tables along with 3.0, other than TAF (which seems to be a special case, given what you said).

EDIT: well...

Monster Bash PC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhTqsXywixI&t=2m58s
Monster Bash PS4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgB5dkwQyqc&t=9m29s

On PC, the ball is as floaty as it is with old physics on PS4. When it goes out the right orbit (coming from the bumpers), the ball does not gain speed when it drops toward the flippers. It's like the ball "slides" rather than "rolls", without gaining some drop speed.

I'll believe it if there's solid evidence from well-defined railroad conditions. Show me an eject that bounces differently on different versions or platforms (ideally on something other than Addams), and we'll need to see it a few times to account for eject variability. Do we have that in these or any other videos?

No need, I'm totally agree with you about the ball paths. It's the same thing, wether it's 3.0 or old physics.

 

[karl]

If the price is going to be $10 and a $10 Kickstarter pledge gets you the table, then you can pledge $10 and not feel bad about donating to yet another Kickstarter. In my eyes it's just a preorder that helps make a great pin (AC/DC) happen.

Couldn't agree more. Well said, Kolchak.

 

[Flipperdeflip]

So far no one's mentioned a release date for the starter pack 4 tables for Stern Pinball Arcade. It seems if Ghostbusters is coming in the fall and it's not a launch table, possibly this summer the launch will happen.

It says in the Kickstarter that "The Stern Pinball Arcade will launch with Ripley's Believe it or Not!, Star Trek, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, Starship Troopers and with your help, AC/DC!"

So AC/DC is a launch table if the KS is fulfilled and its expected release date is November 2016.

If the price is going to be $10 and a $10 Kickstarter pledge gets you the table, then you can pledge $10 and not feel bad about donating to yet another Kickstarter. In my eyes it's just a preorder that helps make a great pin (AC/DC) happen.

But maybe Farsight gets the much needed wake up call when a Kickstarter fails.

 

[Gorgar]

So far no one's mentioned a release date for the starter pack 4 tables for Stern Pinball Arcade.

November (see delivery date by the reward tiers if you don't believe me)

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

But maybe Farsight gets the much needed wake up call when a Kickstarter fails.

What exactly is this "wake up call" or "kick in the a$$" certain people seem to be hoping for? If the Kickstarter fails, I would say the chances are very high that we, the consumers of the application, just aren't going to get certain highly sought after tables. Farsight isn't going to suddenly decide "well, there goes our money-grubbing greedy scheme. guess we'll just have to pony up and pay for this ourselves". They just won't release the high license cost tables. Simple as that.

 

[vikingerik]

Personally, I speculate that some of the "railroading" (especially Season 1 and 2) is more deliberate table tweaks to make the tables a bit easier, to try and attract more casual players.

This is true, most notably the ball-vacuuming left ramps on Creature and Medieval Madness. We (at least I) don't really call that railroading though. The railroads are going to exist anyway because of TPA's deterministic physics. What Farsight does here is tweak flipper parameters and collision geometry per-table until the railroads lead to desirable shots. Sometimes they get this wrong and the railroads lead to the posts flanking AFM's right ramp and never up it.

Yes, the physics engine is not Pro Pinball, but keep in mind, Pro Pinball's has had nearly three years of development time table for just one table.

Pro Pinball's physics engine is still their original one from 1997 on something like a year's worth of development. The Ultra development hasn't touched physics at all yet.

 

[Ben Logan]

I also don't expect "4.0" to be any real improvements, just more slight refinements to flipper behavior as 3.0 was. I don't expect 4.0 to do anything significant like ball spin or proper flipper acceleration and mass.

The one possible exception to all that is if Farsight does import a physics package from Visual Pinball or somewhere else. I'm hoping Stern demands this. I think that's the only way Farsight would invest the effort. If this does happen, then yes I would expect they'd do it for all the SPA tables.

I'm wondering if we might be better served by reaching out to Stern directly with requests for vastly improved physics. Stern is putting their name to this product. The fact that Pro Pinball's twenty year old physics are night vs day superior is such a sad commentary on TPA realism. TPA is like playing tennis on a gorgeously surfaced court, with Toys R Us racquets. Such a seemingly simple fix: Reprioritize to invest in the essential tools that make the game reflective of its real world counterpart.

If part of Stern's approach is "try ACDC or Ghostbusters digital before you buy the real thing" real pinball afficiandos will be absolutely turned off by TPA's railroad floaty physics. We need a serious rewrite of flipper and ball code. Anything less will be bad PR for Stern's real pinball business.

Who knows someone at Stern to whom we may appeal as fans / consumers? Now is our chance. Otherwise we'll be complaining for years to come, again!

 

[vikingerik]

So basically, T2 ball physics on flippers is still crappy, even with 3.0?

I haven't played T2 in forever (like two years), and can't trust my memory of its original physics well enough to compare. But I have played the floaty Cirqus Voltaire regularly, and there wasn't any change to that, the same railroads from the Juggler and Ringmaster ejects still work. And Theatre of Magic also still has the same crude stiff flipper physics that it's always had.

The question now, is to know if this "drop speed variation" has been implemented on older tables along with 3.0, other than TAF (which seems to be a special case, given what you said).

I'd doubt it. Certainly not consistently across all tables because there are so many railroads that still work. It's possible it happened on a few specific tables like TAF and Cyclone though.

Monster Bash PC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhTqsXywixI&t=2m58s
Monster Bash PS4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgB5dkwQyqc&t=9m29s

On PC, the ball is as floaty as it is with old physics on PS4. When it goes out the right orbit (coming from the bumpers), the ball does not gain speed when it drops toward the flippers. It's like the ball "slides" rather than "rolls", without gaining some drop speed.

I'm not convinced of any difference between those. This isn't a railroad. The ball is coming out of the bumpers which do impart randomness. Note that it bounces off the right wall a little higher in the PC video, which would make it take longer to fall and feel more floaty.

The best example I know is CV's ringmaster eject. This is a long railroad that if you don't flip or nudge, always bounces off the held left flipper to settle on the right. If any drop speed or bounciness ever changed, this shouldn't work, but it always has for me on the PC. I'd like to see video evidence for comparison from other platforms, but it's going to be hard to find since everybody else recording videos will flip at the ball instead of waiting for it to fully settle by railroad as I do.

 

[thefly0810]

What exactly is this "wake up call" or "kick in the a$$" certain people seem to be hoping for? If the Kickstarter fails, I would say the chances are very high that we, the consumers of the application, just aren't going to get certain highly sought after tables. Farsight isn't going to suddenly decide "well, there goes our money-grubbing greedy scheme. guess we'll just have to pony up and pay for this ourselves". They just won't release the high license cost tables. Simple as that.

I think a lot of people have been frustrated with Farsight for years for not fixing the current product they have. The PS4 has been out for a few years and problems that have existed from the beginning (the lack of friend leaderboards, sound issues, the lack of trophies, various bugs) have yet to be fixed. Read through posts for other platforms, similar complaints are there as well. Inconsistency with table releases outside of PC and mobile is another. And it's hard to feel like Farsight is genuine when their closest comparison in Zen keeps landing much bigger licenses without the need to use Kickstarter. There are only so many times that Farsight can ask for their fans to fund their tables. And if Farsight is a company that's not going release high end licensed tables because their costumers aren't able to front the bill, is it really a company we should be backing financially. Stern is full of high end licenses tables. It's not just AC/DC. How many of these tables are going to require a Kickstarter?

 

[karl]

What exactly is this "wake up call" or "kick in the a$$" certain people seem to be hoping for? If the Kickstarter fails, I would say the chances are very high that we, the consumers of the application, just aren't going to get certain highly sought after tables. Farsight isn't going to suddenly decide "well, there goes our money-grubbing greedy scheme. guess we'll just have to pony up and pay for this ourselves". They just won't release the high license cost tables. Simple as that.

Well said. This fact seems to be very hard to grasp for some. It is a way to try to release something that would otherwise not happen. If it fails, we will never see the digital version of AC/DC.

With that said, the cost for this license is enormous, and I am afraid that the community will miss out on one of the greatest tables in modern history this time. Hoping that I am wrong, but if this one is to succeed, Farsight will have to pull a few rabbits out regarding the tiers for the kickstarter. Like, Beta testing, season passes (and probably even more)

 

[crazyflipperfingers]

I think a lot of people have been frustrated with Farsight for years for not fixing the current product they have. The PS4 has been out for a few years and problems that have existed from the beginning (the lack of friend leaderboards, sound issues, the lack of trophies, various bugs) have yet to be fixed. Read through posts for other platforms, similar complaints are there as well. Inconsistency with table releases outside of PC and mobile is another. And it's hard to feel like Farsight is genuine when their closest comparison in Zen keeps landing much bigger licenses without the need to use Kickstarter. There are only so many times that Farsight can ask for their fans to fund their tables. And if Farsight is a company that's not going release high end licensed tables because their costumers aren't able to front the bill, is it really a company we should be backing financially. Stern is full of high end licenses tables. It's not just AC/DC. How many of these tables are going to require a Kickstarter?

I don't doubt that the complaints about the existing games are valid, although not game breaking. I don't see how this pertains to Kickstarters though. I see Farsight and Zen's licensing deals as two completely different animals. Zen seems to have struck a very wide reaching deal with Disney (owners of Marvel, LucasArts, and who knows what else) that lets them create many new tables using Disney's assets. There was probably some lump sum deal (pure speculation) that was affordable for Zen if enough tables were created. On the other hand, Farsight is going after licenses for existing tables where in addition to the general IP of the characters, etc... they also need to license actor likenesses, voices and other sound clips, and music on a table by table basis. It seems like Farsight has a much bigger hill to climb. They are never going to release their financial information to the public, but we have to assume it doesn't make business sense for them to fund the licensing themselves.

 

[Flipperdeflip]

It seems like Farsight has a much bigger hill to climb. They are never going to release their financial information to the public, but we have to assume it doesn't make business sense for them to fund the licensing themselves.

SPA is a collaboration between Farsight and Stern, I don't see why Farsight has to foot the complete bill for the licensing costs.