*NITPICK WARNING!* Zen Pinball - why?

[Captain B. Zarre]

Hello everyone. No further ado today, time to talk about Zen.

There are many tables in the world of Zen Pinball. From the 4 originals to the Pinball FX2 exclusives to Marvel & Star Wars, the game aims to provide a substantial collection of made-up tables. And I must say, in Wolverine's words, that they are the best at what they do, and what they do is VERY nice. I love how well they implement story into the game through the Main Missions & Multiballs. But some things in Zen Pinball (mostly the original tables confuse me) have rules that would never happen on a real table. Here is my list of absurd rules I know of in the tables that would never be done on a real table:

- Very little extra balls. Typically only way to get them is through maxed out bonus X or random award. While I do know that games on Zen last extremely long lack of extra balls is a problem. Maybe I've been playing TPA too much
- Why combos? Literally every Zen table with a fan layout has them and I don't know why. I can easily score just as many points, and even more then from these, by completing a Main Mission. Also the combo values restart after about 600k. Wow.
- Why on earth are slingshots important? When I play real world pinball I see the slingshots as kickers to make the ball wild and drain from the flippers, but in Zen they make them act as actual "shots" that count down towards rewards. Most notable in Nightmare Mansion & Mars where collecting 20 slingshots activates the primary multiball. I thought activating multiball was skill, not lucky slingshot bounces!
- Unbalanced Main Mission scoring. I mentioned before that I love the Main Missions but what I don't like about them is that they give you a ridonkulous completion bonus after each one. Rocky & Bullwinkle gives you 5m - 25m after completing one... Multiball Jackpots are just 500k.
- Process of activating Missions can be tedious at times. On Darth Vader & World War Hulk you have to hit the mission hole 6 times to start mission (boring)!
- Hate the Zen originals. In Shaman I always rage over how there's a display for the measly "Drum Score" of 5,500 points and the "Dance Score" of 10,000 points, but none at all - not even the points - for Jackpots that are worth something like 700k points. I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point.

 

[Pinballfan69]

Well you have basically summed up most of the glaring issues Zen may have in their table designs. Regardless, Zen's tables have more appeal to me only because of their polish. I agree that most of Zen's originals are lackluster and it was their first venture into the video pinball scene. There are some interesting and unique one on the core packs that stand out. Rome, Tesla, Shaman, are actually pretty decent. Secrets of the deep, Bio-lab are really fun tables IMO. However, it doesn't deter the enjoyment I have with the unique mission and design that no real table will ever produce on most if not all of Zen's creations.

I do have gripes with Zen's physics Ball weight is just too heavy compared to TPA where TPA's ball is a bit too floaty. And the slingshots don't have the activity of real tables. . There is one designer that did all 3 movie themed tables in Star Wars that tweaked the slingshots and bounciness around the outlanes that gets the nudging game into effect. In most cases I get a bit scared when the ball get's into the slinghots. There is now more of a chance to drain in the outlanes than ever before.

Zen pinball is a simulation and no video game representation can out do a real table in comparison. TPA's allure to me is that I can play adaption and emulations of real tables bringing the nostalgia back from playing some of them back in the hay day of the arcade scene.

In the end it's all about personal opinion.

 

[Tabe]

I agree with pretty much all of the criticisms. That's one reason I like Sorcerer's Lair so much - the scoring is balanced and makes sense. It's also the closest thing to a real pinball table in the whole series.

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

Considering I started with Zen before getting into pinball tables in reality, that slingshots count towards things doesn't concern me. Anything that gets activated via a slingshot is always optional. (For Plants vs. Zombies, by the way, it takes only 10 slingshot hits, and slingshots are aggressive on this one for some reason. This simply summons stray zombies to hit with your ball though.)

Missions tend to be worth a lot, I presume, because Zen's programmers and designers are progression gamers and want to encourage people to get to the end. I personally don't like this design choice, as it railroads people, especially since a lot of Zen's missions are timed and require you to hit specific shots in order. On tables designed by other companies, virtual and real alike, modes required to get to the wizard mode are either timed but count as completed once started (Twilight Zone, Shrek), timed but allow you to pick up where you left off once reactivated (24, Avatar), must be completed but are not timed (Medieval Madness, Revenge from Mars), or provide a sub-wizard mode if you've started everything but didn't complete them all (Monster Bash, Ripley's Believe It Or Not!). Any Zen mode not timed is a multiball, where you must make a lot of required shots to pass. (Iron Man's "Mandarin's Vortex Beam" is the worst offender, as you are given three balls and then must shoot every loop and ramp before draining two balls, there is no ball saver, and the balls appear in the MIDDLE of the playfield right above the center drain.) In other words, Zen's missions always have at least two lose conditions, and they must be accomplished in one go to be cleared, and that the scoring is deliberately unbalanced to encourage people to play the way they want to. Either that, or the Zen designers believe clearing missions on real tables is undervalued.

I believe the way some tables make it difficult to start missions is also related to your being encouraged to progress through the game and its story and is tied into why they're worth so much compared to multiball jackpots. It varies from table to table though. In Fantastic Four, for example, you only have to shoot the Baxter Building once (it's always active), then shoot the Mission Hole. A lot of them are kind of complicated though, and merely getting to start one is sometimes comparable to finishing required modes in real tables. (For Tesla, for instance, you have to essentially complete the Powerfield from Twilight Zone, only there's a drop bank of 5 instead of a hole, and once it passes through, you have to hope the ball goes in the correct direction down the see-saws.)

The main beef I have with Zen tables, though, is that any time you're in a mode, you are locked out of anything else. That is, you are prohibited from stacking anything (with the exception of Artifacts in Blade, which throws the score balancing completely off whack). In Sorcerer's Lair, for a well-played example, when a mission is active, you cannot lock balls towards multiballs nor start them during them. When a multiball is active, anything that does not score a jackpot seems to be worth a flat 1,000 points. When any mode is active, whether mission or multiball, the cellar cannot be progressed, and neither can any spelling bonus except G-H-O-S-T, nor can Whisper be progressed, nor Extra Ball, the Haunted Forest, the gargoyle, the cauldron, or even the Ghost-collecting side ramp. When a mode starts, you are locked in it and must progress or fail. I don't like the lack of choice with these things.

That being said, I do like the Zen tables, for the most part. When what I want to do is the same thing as the designers want me to do, Zen tables can be just as fun as anything else.

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Ahhhh, humor.

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Ahhhh, humor.

Pinwiz, good job pointing that out as well. The tables lack humor - one of the major elements of a table that make it captivate audiences. So far Spider-Man, Iron Man, Moon Knight, and Fantastic Four are really the only tables to incorporate humor into them a la the comics. Every other table, especially the Star Wars Pinball series, seems like a serious deal. I'm not saying there has to be humor everywhere - Bram Stoker's Dracula and Demolition Man only insert humor where it needs fit - but some would be nice!

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

Epic Quest is also a comedy table. At least, that's what it looks like to me. I've never played the unlimited version though. Plants vs. Zombies and Rocky and Bullwinkle (Zen has its own version), by nature, HAVE to be humorous.

That being said, you're absolutely right. The Zen tables take themselves very seriously. The quotes are also dry, with minimilastic stuff like "Multiball!" or "Fantastic!" Most of Zen's other output does not take itself seriously at all though.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I love the theme of Epic Quest. Just wish there was a way to shorten up the length of the games (my wrists ain't what they used to be, heh).

For that reason, I've found the best way to play Zen is multiplayer, because then you can race to a certain score, and the splitscreen action is pretty fun.

 

[canuck]

IMO, zen is a video games inspired by pinball, whereas TPA is a true pinball simulator of recreated pinball tables. Big difference, but also completely different programs.

 

[Jeff Strong]

IMO, zen is a video games inspired by pinball, whereas TPA is a true pinball simulator of recreated pinball tables. Big difference, but also completely different programs.

I wouldn't say TPA is a "true simulation" due to the tables in general being significantly easier than the real machines and the exaggerated nudging. If Zen is the Mario Kart of Pinball, then TPA would be the GRID, which features real cars and locations, but the physics are a mixture of sim and arcade, so it's not on the same simulation level as Gran Turismo or Forza. Some of the VP tables would be the only virtual pins I would be inclined to label as "true simulation". On a sidenote, Pro Pinball's physics are definitely at the top in terms of realism, but of course the pins aren't modeled after real machines, although they're designed in such a way that they certainly could be real pins.

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Epic Quest is also a comedy table. At least, that's what it looks like to me. I've never played the unlimited version though. Plants vs. Zombies and Rocky and Bullwinkle (Zen has its own version), by nature, HAVE to be humorous.

That being said, you're absolutely right. The Zen tables take themselves very seriously. The quotes are also dry, with minimilastic stuff like "Multiball!" or "Fantastic!" Most of Zen's other output does not take itself seriously at all though.

1. Epic Quest is also an awesome comedic table, I was considering to myself that Zen might have got the writers of Medieval Madness to work for them - there are several gameplay features that are reminiscent of MM. Plants vs. Zombies is OK in that regard, nothing memorable but still a great lighthearted table. Rocky & Bullwinkle is from the Pinball FX1 days so it's not too funny, really only unique thing going on with it is the great music with remixed quotes from the series. Despite the latter I am desperately waiting to play a real, Data East R&B machine on location

2. Exactly. Way too many comments with way too little work. I note this a lot during the Clone Wars table (the modes are amazing but have minimal unique quotes). Also noticed some quotes are either unintelligible (whatever the announcer says on V12 at game start... "enter the idin" or something?) or pointless (yoda's fortune cookies in Clone Wars, almost everything in El Dorado or Biolab).

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

(whatever the announcer says on V12 at game start... "enter the idin" or something?) or pointless (yoda's fortune cookies in Clone Wars, almost everything in El Dorado or Biolab).

It was "Engine ignited!"

But yeah, anyway, I think Moon Knight has one of the best quotes of all Zen tables. It's early on the video I recently posted.

 

[WhiteChocolate]

no doubt there's something entirely "OFF" about zen tables, to real-life table players... to the holographic effects, to the anti-gravity (and not just simply magnetic) ball-grabbin' effects, to the the completely nano-pre-techian way of manipulating table elements/effects/ball dropoffs... still, they are very fun, for what they are. i admit to buying more tables of theirs on my ps3 than i should have... may eventually buy 'em all. (and the upcoming SW-ANH set is a no-brainer.)

my heart's totally into TPA though. zen tables i just don't think would translate to RL very well, accounting for the dimensional effects and all... a little too slow, too easy. great videogame-style PB though! obviously... i just wonder what one of their tables, the most 'real-world' designed one, how well it would make the transition.

p.s. i do totally lust after the 'holographic projection' idea for rw tables; one of those innovations to come. that would be effing TRRRRIPPPY...

 

[shogun00]

I love the theme of Epic Quest. Just wish there was a way to shorten up the length of the games (my wrists ain't what they used to be, heh).

Go into the operator's menu and adjust some of the settings. You can set the table difficulty to "very hard", turn off the ball save, adjust the table slope, reduce the ball count, turn off extra balls, etc...

 

[Jeff Strong]

Go into the operator's menu and adjust some of the settings. You can set the table difficulty to "very hard", turn off the ball save, adjust the table slope, reduce the ball count, turn off extra balls, etc...

Yeah, I've tried that.

At least multiplayer is fun though.

 

[Tabe]

i just wonder what one of their tables, the most 'real-world' designed one, how well it would make the transition.

Without a doubt, Sorcerers Lair. I think it would make an excellent transition to a real table.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I think Rockey and Bullwinkle is actually the most realistic. It doesn't have any ghosts or other weird things dancing around. The playfield layout is actually almost a mirror image of the real Sorcerer pinball machine. Also, it's actually quite hard. I think my high score is only around 15 million. Too bad Zen didn't make more like that.

 

[Tabe]

Being a PlayStation guy, I've never seen the Rocky & Bullwinkle table. All the unrealistic stuff in Sorcerers Lair could easily be turned into a drop target or light. And the table layout is very realistic.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Being a PlayStation guy, I've never seen the Rocky & Bullwinkle table. All the unrealistic stuff in Sorcerers Lair could easily be turned into a drop target or light. And the table layout is very realistic.

Yeah, I could see that with Sorcerer's Lair, although they'd have to get a bit creative with things, such as the giant tree bending over and stuff like that. It'd be pretty fun in real life actually.

Rocky and Bullwinkle is pretty basic since it's practically a replica of an 80's pin, so it wouldn't require any addons to make it work in real life.

 

[Espy]

Zen are making a Deadpool table. That is bound to have humour in it!