One step forward and two steps back with latest 1.21 patch..... Like usual...

[xZOMBIEx]

One person said it best in another thread I posted, we get so frustrated and passionate about this game because we have put a lot of money into it and just want it to work... It's frustrating to see it look and work so much better on other platforms (mainly PC and Mobile) and it should be just as good on the PS4... The PS4 and Xbox One are just about on par with PCs these days, sure you can get higher resolutions and stuff, but still, it should be just about the same....

As for taking steps back, there is a lot of issues with the ball or the ball physics now... Especially on the Twilight Zone table, when you go to plunge the ball it is bouncing around, kind of like if the ball is in one of those boxes for lottery and the balls are being tossed around by air blowing from the bottom, that's how it looks... Then when you can finally plunge it, it feels off, kind of like if it has the ceramic ball physics... There is a certain pattern you can do on that table and because the ball is to bouncy it throws everything off... Or the box that shoots it out is shooting it out to hard as its supposed to come out to where it just bounces off the right flipper into the left flipper softly...

Then on the Terminator 2 table you can get into loop patterns and when you shoot it up the far right orbit, it supposed to come around onto the left flipper and it will bounce up a little, but when it comes back down after the bounce off the left flipper you will know if it's going to come back and rest on the left flipper or if it's going to go bounce off the right flipper into the left flipper... That's the easiest i can explain it, but before there was a way to get into that pattern and just keep doing orbit loops if you wanted, now that the ball is to bouncy, it throws that off...

Also when plunging the ball, it seems like its not hitting it the way it used to... Almost like if it is not as hard... On some tables you know exactly how far to bring the plunger back to get the skill shot on some tables, now it's like you have to bring it further back than before and even then it sometimes feels to not hit it hard enough... For example on that Scared Stiff table, i knew exactly where to bring the plunger down and when y2k release it....But now we have to bring it further back and even then that's sometimes is to soft and won't come up to where the skill shot is...

Another thing I've noticed on all tables I've tried pretty much is that when you hit the ball when it gets to the end or tip of the flipper because you are trying to get it to go up the far left or right orbit or if your trying to hit targets that's on the side, but when you do that, the ball will instead go up the flipper drain lane on the other side and then ends up going down the actual drain lane.... So its like it goes up the left flipper lane if you hit it off the right flipper and then when it comes back down it instead goes down the actual drain lane And drains... Sometimes it will come back down the flipper lane it went up, but it usually will go down the drain lane....

It's hard up explain in just words typing without pictures or a video, but that's the best and easiest i could explain...

Those seem to be the biggest things I've noticed so far... l

 

[gameaddict4life]

To me the PS3 version is the best version of the Pinball Arcade. Sure it doesn't have the dynamic lighting of the PC and PS4 versions but it just feels right in terms of gameplay. The sound is also superior to the PS4 version. There aren't any audio cutoffs in the PS3 version. While the PS4 version has improved graphically, brighter ball/playfield, it still falls well short of the PS3 version, IMO.

If somebody was to ask me which version of the Pinball Arcade to get I would recommend the PS3 version with a 720p set hooked up to a stereo gaming chair. It's the best way to play. The only downside is the lack of new tables but six seasons worth is plenty. I only have three seasons but I've put tons of hours into the PS3 version. I've only mastered a handful of the tables too.

 

[Jeff Strong]

It's frustrating for sure, but I guess the silver lining is we have Tom working on it now, so at least we know someone is actively reading the forum and working to address the issues...whereas before it was all just a huge mystery/mess. Over time, hopefully the fruits of his labor will become more evident, but just gotta give him some patience to do his thing.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

I think there may be reasonable explanations for T2 and TZ... [MENTION=7016]Tom Devaney[/MENTION] may be able to confirm or deny this.

T2, a new, re-tuned version was released on Steam last year. It behaves exactly as described: faster, "heavier", bouncier, less predictable. In other words: harder. In terms of physics, it now plays and feels a lot closer to something like F-14 (a good comparison since they're both Steve Ritchie tables with a lot of similar design elements). As far as I'm concerned, this is for the better. I much prefer a challenge than soft, boring, railroads; T2 was that. It isn't any more.

TZ also got the re-tuning treatment, but unfortunately went out on Steam before it was properly tested and finished. For example, it's currently virtually impossible to make the left ramp from a trap on either flipper! I know real-life TZs are ball-busters, but this was taking it a bit far. Right now, [MENTION=3799]FlippyFloppy[/MENTION] et al. are doing another tuning pass on TZ. So it's possible that this mid-tuning-pass version somehow got in the PS4 patch.

As for the music issues - those aren't isolated to the PS4 version. The Steam version also has similar issues with musing not starting, the wrong music playing at times, some effects not kicking off, and so on. (And don't even mention the broken Steam cloud save bug that means I've not even touched the Steam version in over a month; that's supposed to be fixed with Sorcerer.)

 

[xZOMBIEx]

I guess i can understand some of the changes, but doesn't that also go against them being authentic recreations? Granted i know a virtual recreation can't be exactly like the real thing and things are going to be off... With these kind of changes, it should be something that's added as an option or something you can turn on or off... Kind of like how there are theatrical versions of movies and then unrated directors cut...

It could also create a new leaderboard, so you have the original version and the new more challenging version and the newer more challenging version could be the ones used for tournaments since most of those are always topped by people that know the certain patterns and these newer versions can shake things up.....

It's also like how the game automatically turns off leaderboard and achievement tracking if you go into the operators menu and just change the game to turn off the family friendly setting, like the Elvira table, it doesn't change anything on the game scoring wise or game mode wise, all it does is change or adds things that are said... To be honest, something like that should have the censoring or family friendly settings turned off by default because in these days its so tame and kind of lame on what is censored...

Either way though, it would be nice to know these things and have something more in stone and exactly what was changed or what to expect so we will know if it's a bug/issue or just something adjusted on purpose... Also since these are supposed to be recreations of actual tables, we should also have an option to play the original more predictable version or play the more unpredictable updated version....

 

[Rayder]

I'm sure Tom is working on the most critical issues first, then he will get to the more obscure issues as he goes along. We all know that he walked into quite a mess when he took over the PS4 releases. Give him some time to clear things up. It's not going to happen over night. Current issues notwithstanding, things are better now than they have been in a long time on PS4. I have more confidence now than I've had in over a year for the PS4 version of TPA, thanks to Tom's efforts.

 

[shutyertrap]

I guess i can understand some of the changes, but doesn't that also go against them being authentic recreations? Granted i know a virtual recreation can't be exactly like the real thing and things are going to be off... With these kind of changes, it should be something that's added as an option or something you can turn on or off... Kind of like how there are theatrical versions of movies and then unrated directors cut...

It could also create a new leaderboard, so you have the original version and the new more challenging version and the newer more challenging version could be the ones used for tournaments since most of those are always topped by people that know the certain patterns and these newer versions can shake things up.....

It's also like how the game automatically turns off leaderboard and achievement tracking if you go into the operators menu and just change the game to turn off the family friendly setting, like the Elvira table, it doesn't change anything on the game scoring wise or game mode wise, all it does is change or adds things that are said... To be honest, something like that should have the censoring or family friendly settings turned off by default because in these days its so tame and kind of lame on what is censored...

Either way though, it would be nice to know these things and have something more in stone and exactly what was changed or what to expect so we will know if it's a bug/issue or just something adjusted on purpose... Also since these are supposed to be recreations of actual tables, we should also have an option to play the original more predictable version or play the more unpredictable updated version....

The retuning is in an effort to make the tables more authentic to how they really are. FarSight used to talk about having 'tournament settings' as an option, but they never went anywhere with that.

The leaderboards, well that's something of a sticking point. I've argued they should be wiped and reset annually, or at least when a significant tuning has taken place. There are those at FarSight that agree with me, and those that worry of the blowback from people who make it a point to live at the top of those boards. In the entire history of the game, they've not been reset once.

Any time you open the coin door in TPA, it turns off the leaderboards and achievements. FarSight has no way of tracking what it is you are doing with those settings, so it universally assumes you are altering the play of the game. We have asked for a toggle outside the coin door that would allow us to turn on and off family mode specifically for a table like Elvira, but no go.

A lot of this and in general how the 'game' understands what is going on with the table itself comes down to the fact that there is the TPA program with which you interface and then once the table is running, the ROM emulation. When you get a standard or wizard goal on the table, it is a FarSight overlay triggering when a certain audio prompt or score is met. It is not looking at the ROM or even what the ball is doing to get triggered. It's an artificial overlay, which is why sometimes the goals don't get triggered when say there is multiple audio callouts happening instead of just the one that the goal needs. FarSight is not able to write code into the ROM, unlike Zen who has complete control over their tables.

 

[Tom Devaney]

In regards to the tuning, that is something that I don't mess with. Like [MENTION=4106]EldarOfSuburbia[/MENTION] said, FlippyFloppy is the one at FarsightStudios who does the tuning here. This should affect every platform, but it requires the person in charge of the platform to rebuild certain files. If that isn't done, the old tuning will still be there. When I went through every table to rebuild the lighting, I got all of those tuning changes.

Ultimately, I don't do much in regards to tuning other than make sure my tables are updated with them, and if this is an issue, it's not PS4 specific.

 

[Byte]

[MENTION=1214]Tom[/MENTION]Devaney

Isn't that done automatically every time you create a new TPA build to send to Sony? One would assume (since all the tables are part of the main program) that it would pull all the most-current assets from various places so you won't have to keep track of any updates manually? For instance, if someone fixed a graphics error on a backglass, does that get included automatically or do you have to hear from "Greg" (name made up) that he finally got around to fixing that little mistake on such-and-so backglass, make a mental note, and if you still remember do something specific for that table?

 

[Tom Devaney]

[MENTION=1214]Tom[/MENTION]Devaney

Isn't that done automatically every time you create a new TPA build to send to Sony? One would assume (since all the tables are part of the main program) that it would pull all the most-current assets from various places so you won't have to keep track of any updates manually? For instance, if someone fixed a graphics error on a backglass, does that get included automatically or do you have to hear from "Greg" (name made up) that he finally got around to fixing that little mistake on such-and-so backglass, make a mental note, and if you still remember do something specific for that table?

Nope, it's not done automatically. I indeed do have to hear from Greg and then manually do it. That's why sometimes a fix might go out on PC and other platforms but not PS4. It's a bit complicated but it ultimately comes down to the way we compress and/or store all of the resources for a table.

 

[xZOMBIEx]

After playing some more last night, multiple tables, i can definitely say that I'm not liking the "tuning" if that is what it is one bit... Numerous times i would lose the ball over stupid stuff that never happened before because its to bouncy and also right after plunging it, it would right away go down a drain lane depending how it bounced or what it bounced off, etc....

Fish Tales is one of the more frustrating tables with these ball physics.... It is now virtually impossible too get that fast reel skill shot, where you are supposed to hit the ball into the ball lock immediately after launching it... Before it would be easier to catch and have just enough time although it was still short and hard to do, but it could be done to get that skill shot, but now the ball bounces off to high or if you try to hit it right when it hits the flipper it goes off and will sometimes go down the right drain lane....

These are the kinds of things that infuriates us, majority of the tables, especially the older seasons were fine just as they were, maybe some of the newer tables needed some adjusting, for example the World Cup table seemed real floaty and slow, it feels a little better now, but there could be some tweaking still....

Another table that is just about unplayable with how the ball is going all crazy now is the Frank Thomas table Grand Slam or something? The ball will drain almost immediately when trying to go for the skill shot in that and even if you don't and just playing or trying to it ends up draining... While that's a table I haven't played much, mostly because of how the lighting was last year and ended up not playing the whole game for most of the year, I would sometimes still try here and there, and I never had lost the ball as quick as i have last night... It got so frustrating that i just stopped....

However, the last table that i ended up trying before giving up because i wanted to see how bad Addams Family might have gotten and thankfully that table felt like it always has and felt like it played the same and the ball wasn't bouncing around all crazy like on the other tables...

So if you all can, please get the ball physics similar to that table or back to how they were.... While the ball does feel a little heavier in some regards to make it faster i guess, it is making it way to bouncy like if it's a rubber ball and not a steel ball... On most real life tables, the ball doesn't come bounce off the flipper and go past the bumper above it or i think they are called the sling shots? But what ever they are called right above to the side of the flippers that can bump the ball around, it shouldn't go higher than them...

Most of the complaints are either with the sound, lighting, the game not restarting correctly, like one that comes to mind that i haven't tried yet, but i will tonight is Bone Busters, usually after you lost your balls, the table wouldn't restart like it should, it would just be stuck at the end and that is what messed up that table the last time the PS4 had a tournament and that was included... The only way your score got recognized was if you didn't lose the game and time ran out, but if you lost then it usually just stayed there and wouldn't restart or get your score and the time stopped cause it thought you lost and was waiting for you to proceed to start again...

But it had that issue in the regular game, so it doesn't have to be in the tournament setting to see if it is fixed or still broken....

But what i was getting to, was that it seems like people are going in and tweaking things that were already well enough as it was and it doesn't seem like there are any testers, so it just gets released and we are the ones that have to report and wait.... For example, the lighting was fine before the 1.17 patch last year... Sure it wasn't amazing, but it was a lot better than it was before that patch and could at least see the ball and play field.... Then 1.17 patch and it was too dark and hard to see the ball and took a year to get fixed and every time we would let support know they said they were aware and a fix would be coming soon, which we all know how that turned out...

Again, I hate to bring up Zens Pinball FX series, but on there we don't have the ball or any physics that are different from table to table, for the most part its pretty consistent across all tables.... I understand it might be a little tricky when trying to recreate an authentic table versus one like theirs which are all originals, but the core physics should be the same no matter what table... Much like in real life, the ball is the same in all tables unless there is a social one like the ceramic one on Twilight Zone... It rolls down the same speed at the same angle and it will bounce the same, etc... So that's why I say the core physics of the ball should be about the same in all tables and then its just a matter of what kind of things are in the table that it will bounce off of, like rubber, plastic, metal, etc...

So when things are tweaked like they have been if that's the case it some coding of the physics got messed up cause something else was changed, but either way, it's those things that throw the game off and we tend to lose interest....

Well, I'll test some others out, but the more frustrated this game makes me is just driving me further away to just give up on it and i don't want to cause i love pinball and don't really have a place to go and play, so these are the next best available and while i do like the real tables more, if rather just play Zens originals cause i know it's not in this kind of shape and know what to expect.... Plus, i would love to play these newer tables and learn them, but when its unfair physics that causes you to lose, well that just kills the fun... That's what it felt like last night, most drains were BS and i would restart and then immediately again drain after launching or knowing things are so off it throws off how you play, etc...

 

[funchords]

it doesn't seem like there are any testers, so it just gets released and we are the ones that have to report and wait.

Yes, agreed. If there are testers, it seems like there is no release process to make sure glaring and obvious errors don't get released -- like missing music on main menus or can't launch ball 1 on Twilight Zone without seeing it dance or can't launch Elvira without a crash. Basic, black-box testing, regression testing, release checklist. Find and fix before the users find and complain. There is no merit in a fast buggy release. The satisfaction of quickly getting out those 10 fixes will be drowned by the 10 new bugs they definitely should have seen.

After playing some more last night, multiple tables, i can definitely say that I'm not liking the "tuning" if that is what it is one bit

I'm not sure that I totally hate it. Some of the physical sequences should be predictable, like when you catch it in a flipper and then let it roll to the flush end and then push to launch it to the predictable place -- that should and does seem to work. But when a kickout always has the same velocity and trajectory, that's not like real life.

I just played Ripley's and some of my pat sequences aren't so pat anymore, but they're not implausibly different either. I'm torn between whether this is more like real life or not. My mind is not made up. Maybe this is more real.

.. except for Twilight Zone ... that dancing ball is definitely unreal.

 

[shutyertrap]

A lot of the reasons we ask for tuning changes to tables is because they don't behave how the actual table does. Twilight Zone is a notoriously brutal table in real life, but in TPA it was no problem to run the board with it. Ripley's was ridiculous with how predictable the ball behavior was until it got a new tuning. Also know that no two real tables play the same. Especially for some reason Creature, which in real life just brutalizes me, and never the same way twice depending on where I'm playing it.

Physics also aren't the same universally across real tables in that you need to account for table angle, flipper strength, freshness of rubber, whether the surface is waxed or has mylar or is clear coated. I experienced that on my own machine when I first got it. The playfield hadn't been touched in 12 years, the rubber was at least 9 years old, and the ball simply wasn't behaving the way I saw the pros making it behave in videos. I cleaned the hell out of it, waxed the surface, changed all the rubber, and the ball behaved incredibly different. And yes, I was now able to duplicate more or less some shots I saw.

Those first 2 seasons of tables, and some in season 3, desperately need the tuning they are getting. It is bringing them up to par with how the tables are tuned now with each release, and have been since season 4. I don't know what to tell you in regards to playing on the PS4, as I only play on Steam now, but it's way better as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The M]

The Twilight Zone is broken. Plain and simple. Anyone that tries it out will immediately see what I mean. First off the window for the plunger has no plunger in it. Second the plunger is over too far to the right and you cannot see it being pulled back. Finally upon pulling the plunger the ball dances in a left to right motion continuously and gets stopped on the rail as you try to shoot it. Then once you do get it shot the ejector shoots the ball out at about three times the real speed of the actual table. It is a bug of some kind and will need to be looked into to be repaired.

 

[Gorgar]

So, just sampled Twilight Zone and Fish Tales. It is still possible to get the fast reel skill shot on Fish Tales. You just need to do a drop catch on the left flipper and hit it into the ball lock right away.

Twilight Zone, I'll give you that plunging the ball is whack, but I actually prefer the new physics to the old physics. The old physics were way too predictable and the new physics add a MUCH needed challenge. It should be a matter of if you can get to lost in the zone, not how many times you can get there.

Also, I have had no problem hitting either ramp from a left flipper trap, contrary to what Eldar mentioned. When the ball returns to the left flipper, it is much harder to trap it, but isn't that the way it should be?

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

The current PS4 build of TZ is clearly different from the current Steam build, which is my most recent reference point.

As for Fish Tales, that's not had any kind of tuning pass. Doesn't need one. It's tough enough as it is.

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk

 

[Tom Devaney]

We have since fixed the plunger on TZ being whack (that was definitely a bug), but the rest of the table was tuned to be less predictable and more realistic.

 

[The M]

We have since fixed the plunger on TZ being whack (that was definitely a bug), but the rest of the table was tuned to be less predictable and more realistic.

Were you able to fix the slot machine ejector too? It was shooting the ball onto my flipper so hard it flies all the way up to the 2nd flipper at the top right. I know that is not correct to the real table so I hope that is fixed also. I see no other issues with the table so far, but that one is a big one for me. TZ is one of my faves.

 

[Tom Devaney]

Were you able to fix the slot machine ejector too? It was shooting the ball onto my flipper so hard it flies all the way up to the 2nd flipper at the top right. I know that is not correct to the real table so I hope that is fixed also. I see no other issues with the table so far, but that one is a big one for me. TZ is one of my faves.

Is that the eject that you go into right after plunging? If so, it seems fine on my end so FlippyFloppy must've tuned that.

 

[funchords]

Is that the eject that you go into right after plunging?

No, it's this one...

... it is an unreasonably, impossibly fast eject now.