Request PS4: Better physics and/or graphics vs 3D capability.

[brakel]

I'm wondering if the PS4 will be able to be updated to HDMI 2.0 with a firmware update. The PS3 was able to be updated from 1.3 to 1.4b through firmware. Also considering that HDMI 2.0 isn't a minimum spec but rather a collection of optional features, they might be able to update for some 2.0 features but not all. The important part would be to be able to send a 2.0 compliant signal that a 2.0 compliant TV can use. That seems like something that could be done with firmware.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

I'm wondering if the PS4 will be able to be updated to HDMI 2.0 with a firmware update. The PS3 was able to be updated from 1.3 to 1.4b through firmware. Also considering that HDMI 2.0 isn't a minimum spec but rather a collection of optional features, they might be able to update for some 2.0 features but not all. The important part would be to be able to send a 2.0 compliant signal that a 2.0 compliant TV can use. That seems like something that could be done with firmware.

It was my understanding from the iFixit teardown that the HDMI chip in the PS4 was 1.4b capable, but I cannot find concrete proof of that. It seems likely though as I'm fairly sure the HDMI 2.0 specification was finalised long after the PS4 was, never mind manufacturing actual HDMI 2.0 DSPs.

Ah I see RIGHT at the end of the Eurogamer article they confirm Trine 2 in 3D runs at 720p 60fps. The developer blame the PS4 firmware for the limitation which I think confirms what I had read before, the PS4 only supports HDMI 1.3 right now but its 1.4b capable which enables 1080p 30fps in 3D. For some games that would be a decent compromise.

Brings me back to my point though, if they supported split-screen 3D like how broadcast TV does it then they could do half 1080p at 60fps which is by far the best compromise of them all, especially for those of us on passive screens who only get half anyway.

 

[brakel]

It was my understanding from the iFixit teardown that the HDMI chip in the PS4 was 1.4b capable, but I cannot find concrete proof of that. It seems likely though as I'm fairly sure the HDMI 2.0 specification was finalised long after the PS4 was, never mind manufacturing actual HDMI 2.0 DSPs.

Ah I see RIGHT at the end of the Eurogamer article they confirm Trine 2 in 3D runs at 720p 60fps. The developer blame the PS4 firmware for the limitation which I think confirms what I had read before, the PS4 only supports HDMI 1.3 right now but its 1.4b capable which enables 1080p 30fps in 3D. For some games that would be a decent compromise.

Brings me back to my point though, if they supported split-screen 3D like how broadcast TV does it then they could do half 1080p at 60fps which is by far the best compromise of them all, especially for those of us on passive screens who only get half anyway.

Yes, but in the same way that the PS3 was firmware patched from HDMI 1.3 to HDMI 1.4b, could the PS4 be firmware patched from HDMI 1.4b to 2.0? Also considering that HDMI 2.0 is not a minimum requirement protocol but rather a collection of optional features, perhaps the PS4 would be capable of some HDMI 2.0 features even if it isn't capable of all of them.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

No, because the features required actually involve doubling the bandwidth beyond what the HDMI chip was designed for.

The difference between HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 work within the same technical restrictions which is presumably how they were able to adapt the PS3. The FAT PS3 for example was definitely not fully compliant as it cannot bitstream lossless audio when in 3D, at least for Blurays. Not sure what the restrictions are for games as so few are worth playing in 3D.

As I understand it the PS3 support was a bit of a hack and causes problems with PCM sound output when 3D is enabled.

 

[brakel]

No, because the features required actually involve doubling the bandwidth beyond what the HDMI chip was designed for.

The difference between HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 work within the same technical restrictions which is presumably how they were able to adapt the PS3. The FAT PS3 for example was definitely not fully compliant as it cannot bitstream lossless audio when in 3D, at least for Blurays. Not sure what the restrictions are for games as so few are worth playing in 3D.

As I understand it the PS3 support was a bit of a hack and causes problems with PCM sound output when 3D is enabled.

Its not a hack just a firmware update. A later firmware update brought lossless audio for 3D on the PS3.

After doing much searching and reading no one, not even the folks at the hdmi.org forum, is saying that an update from HDMI 1.4 to 2.0 via firmware only is impossible. No one is saying its possible either although Sony has implied it. So we're going to have to wait and see.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

As I understand it they couldn't enable lossless audio for 3D on the PS4 FAT only the slim. That suggests to me its definitely a hack on the PS3 FAT but they manufactured with slim with an actual HDMI 1.4 compliant chip so were able to add full functionality with a later firmware update, the same way they will on the PS4.

I may be wrong of course, perhaps I should try a 3D Bluray to find out. lol

 

[brakel]

As I understand it they couldn't enable lossless audio for 3D on the PS4 FAT only the slim. That suggests to me its definitely a hack on the PS3 FAT but they manufactured with slim with an actual HDMI 1.4 compliant chip so were able to add full functionality with a later firmware update, the same way they will on the PS4.

I may be wrong of course, perhaps I should try a 3D Bluray to find out. lol

You are. You should.

I have an original fat PS3 along with a slim and super cheap slim and lossless audio works on all in 3D.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

From what I can gather digging a little deeper, Sony managed to cheat on PS3 by decoding the surround sound (from 3D Blurays) in software and then sending it out as PCM.
It is absolutely 100% a hack (in my opinion) as it results in inferior sound quality because a receivers DACs generally perform much more precise decoding than any software codec in my experience.

Where I went wrong as I mistakenly thought ALL lossless audio was blocked in 3D but it was just bitstreaming Dolby/DTS lossless. So it doesn't apply to games anyway as long as your receiver supports PCM surround.

Interestingly, I actually stopped using Netflix on PS3 because the sound quality was flat as it wouldn't bitstream Dolby Digital Plus either. When using the WDTV Live or PS4 which DOES support DD+, the surround mix just comes to life as my receiver does all the processing.

How they added 3D support is a mystery though, not sure if its just that the HDMI chip already was new enough or they did somehow manage to hack unofficial support to what is technically an older HDMI version. I'm guessing it just reads from the TV what formats IT supports and reports back what it is also capable of. As long as it presents the right format output it probably doesn't matter if the whole HDMI spec is supported.

HDMI 2.0 however is a different beast as again, it doubles the bandwidth which is a hardware change.

 

[brakel]

From what I can gather digging a little deeper, Sony managed to cheat on PS3 by decoding the surround sound (from 3D Blurays) in software and then sending it out as PCM.
It is absolutely 100% a hack (in my opinion) as it results in inferior sound quality because a receivers DACs generally perform much more precise decoding than any software codec in my experience.

Where I went wrong as I mistakenly thought ALL lossless audio was blocked in 3D but it was just bitstreaming Dolby/DTS lossless. So it doesn't apply to games anyway as long as your receiver supports PCM surround.

Interestingly, I actually stopped using Netflix on PS3 because the sound quality was flat as it wouldn't bitstream Dolby Digital Plus either. When using the WDTV Live or PS4 which DOES support DD+, the surround mix just comes to life as my receiver does all the processing.

I know that they are increasing the bandwidth but they aren't changing the pipe. They're only changing how fast the information runs through the pipe. The connectors are the same and the cables are the same. The kicker to me is that the HDMI.org forum guys are not saying that its impossible. Until we get some engineers that try it and can't get it to work then I think we have to have an open mind that it might be possible. I'm not saying that I think it can be upgraded from 1.4 to 2.0, I'm just keeping an open mind to the possibility.

All passive 3D is essentially interlaced TV so LG's passive TV is like 1080i.

*****UPDATE*****

Here's an article that explains how HDMI 2.0 works. It's better than anything else I've read. Here's an important bit:

http://hdguru.com/hdmi-2-0-what-you-need-to-know/ Sony has promised that the UHD displays it introduced in 55- and 65-inch sizes this year will receive a firmware update for HDMI 2.0. How is this possible? Since the HDMI 2.0 signal is electrically identical to HDMI 1.4, the change will be in how fast the HDMI chip operates. We speculate that Sony and others may have planned for HDMI 2.0 and used a faster chip in their UHD displays to prepare for it. This means the upgrade will be a simple firmware update that’s likely downloaded from the Internet.

So the PS4 is likely to be able to upgrade to HDMI 2.0 if Sony used a fast enough HDMI chip.

 

[Cyborg]

From what I can gather digging a little deeper, Sony managed to cheat on PS3 by decoding the surround sound (from 3D Blurays) in software and then sending it out as PCM.
It is absolutely 100% a hack (in my opinion) as it results in inferior sound quality because a receivers DACs generally perform much more precise decoding than any software codec in my experience.

Hmm, I wonder how that can be. Decoding a bitstream format into uncompressed PCM should be a digital operation so there's either "do" or "don't" - there can't be "good" or "bad" decoding. The sound is still all digital (be it bitstream or PCM) until it reaches your DAC.

Interestingly, I actually stopped using Netflix on PS3 because the sound quality was flat as it wouldn't bitstream Dolby Digital Plus either. When using the WDTV Live or PS4 which DOES support DD+, the surround mix just comes to life as my receiver does all the processing.

Now that's interesting (and strange) as it's just the opposite for me. Netflix on PS3 offers DD 5.1 while on PS4 I see "stereo" as the only option. I thought this was just a bug in the PS4 Netflix app, but apparently not.

Incidentally, there's one thing I wish Sony would add to PS4: the ability to manually specify which sound formats your receiver supports over HDMI (you can do that on PS3). As it is now, the PS4 only does an automatic detection, which usually fails miserably if you have an HDMI switch or splitter in between.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

All passive 3D is essentially interlaced TV so LG's passive TV is like 1080i.

Correct. Which is why its cheeky LG somehow got it declared as FullHD because you shouldn't be able to add both eyes together and claim such a thing. There was mention of some sort of hack that outputs double the frame rate so the screen actually displays all the information but I don't see how that could work, you would get a jumpy picture if it showed the odd lines on the even lines of the screen which is the only way that could work.

So the PS4 is likely to be able to upgrade to HDMI 2.0 if Sony used a fast enough HDMI chip.

I was just basing it not being possible due to the page Chipworks linked to regarding the PS4 HDMI LSI chip (the bit that converts the frame buffer into HDMI signals). It says:

Panasonic provides HDMI communication LSIs compliant with the Ver.1.4b standard for 3D images.

However I note now that the specific chip that they mention is not listed on that page, could it be a higher specced version?

The point is moot though seeing as it seems only a few 4K TVs are going to be software upgraded to HDMI 2.0. So even if the PS4 was upgraded our good old 1080p 3D TVs will not be. Notice that everyone seems to be making a big deal out of HDMI 2.0 for the sake of 4K, yet for watching movies HDMI 1.4b is fine for that. Nobody seems to even bother mentioning 3D any more which is where we NEED the upgrade.