Real Life Pinball Comparisons

[JPelter]

I'd like to note here that the kickouts are in fact not identical every time. They may not have enough/as much variance as a real table but it's certainly there. TotAN bazaar is the easiest way to test this. Holding the right flipper up to catch the ball will show different trajectories. They almost always come to rest on the flipper in the end, probably something like 49/50 times, but it's easy to see they bounce in different ways. I think this is due to TPA actually modeling the ball movements even when they are out of sight, so chances are they can eventually get it even more realistic when they fiddle with the physics engine in general. This is on PS3 btw if it makes a difference. I don't know if the mobile versions cut corners in physics modeling or not, but as I understand it the versions are identical apart from some slight graphical differences?

 

[Jeff Strong]

There definitely needs to be a bit more variance though.

 

[JPelter]

There definitely needs to be a bit more variance though.

Oh definitely I agree. The differences are too minute to make a difference for gameplay a vast majority of the time. I just wanted to point out that the possibility for it is already there, just not cranked up high enough.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

But FarSight should definitely fix the flipper physics before worrying about variance issues.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Oh definitely I agree. The differences are too minute to make a difference for gameplay a vast majority of the time. I just wanted to point out that the possibility for it is already there, just not cranked up high enough.

But FarSight should definitely fix the flipper physics before worrying about variance issues.

I agree with both of you.

 

[PinJimmy]

But FarSight should definitely fix the flipper physics before worrying about variance issues.

You are right.
They should improve it before releasing all those tables.
Until they fix this we shouldnt compare TPA to real life tables.
Real tables dont play like TPA.

 

[RetroDude]

You are right.
They should improve it before releasing all those tables.
Until they fix this we shouldnt compare TPA to real life tables.
Real tables dont play like TPA.

But it's a lot closer than just about anything else...
And they are working on making it better.

The efforts to improve the physics are not limited just to NEW tables.
FarSight has stated that the improvements WILL be for all of the tables.. including ones already released.

In the meantime, you can play the tables that aren't absolutely 1000% perfect, physics-wise, knowing that they will only get better.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

You are right.
They should improve it before releasing all those tables.
Until they fix this we shouldnt compare TPA to real life tables.
Real tables dont play like TPA.

That's not what I was implying. I was indicating that the flipper issue is causing more problems than the deterministic kickouts and should be fixed first, not that the flippers were so bad that the entire game needed to be disregarded.

 

[PinJimmy]

But it's a lot closer than just about anything else...
And they are working on making it better.

The efforts to improve the physics are not limited just to NEW tables.
FarSight has stated that the improvements WILL be for all of the tables.. including ones already released.

In the meantime, you can play the tables that aren't absolutely 1000% perfect, physics-wise, knowing that they will only get better.

Pro pinball has the best ball/ flipper physics then anything else.
I hope farsight will improves theirs.

 

[SilverBalls]

I kinda feel like I can deal with the nasty slingshots, and somewhat too consistent ball behavior, just as long as we get more advanced flipper physics. I think this should the TOP priority of things to fix. If we can't do advanced flipper skills on TPA, then the whole collection might as well just be a casual gamer fest. I too want to use my time playing TPA to advance my real pin skills, but right now the flipper physics just aren't up to snuff.

There is a very nice post today over on VPForums where jimmyfingers has written some flipper/physics routines which allow several flipper skills previously not possible. The video link is here:

http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=20015&view=findpost&p=183129

This is very impressive work by jimmy, and promising that FS will be able to support this type of behaviour in the near future.

 

[PinJimmy]

That looks great.
But I think farsight wont implent that behaviour.
Not in the near future I think.

So having to play these great tables with these physics is kinda dissapointing.

 

[Richard B]

There is a very nice post today over on VPForums where jimmyfingers has written some flipper/physics routines which allow several flipper skills previously not possible.

This is very impressive work by jimmy, and promising that FS will be able to support this type of behaviour in the near future.

Is Jimmy working with FS? What makes you think that just because it can be done, that FS will do it?
Would be great if they did though.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

That looks great.
But I think farsight wont implent that behaviour.
Not in the near future I think.

So having to play these great tables with these physics is kinda dissapointing.

In another part of this forum, Bobby King (a FarSight employee and I believe the one in charge of the physics) was recently asked about the flipper control issues as part of an ongoing Q&A session he's agreed to do. He has not responded yet, and it might be awhile - his business duties obviously must come first - but the question has been asked.

Also, much earlier, FarSight acknowledged the general bounciness around the flippers needed work, but that adjusting the physics engine is a delicate business and they didn't want to make a quick fix and break a bunch of other stuff. They must be making minor adjustments as they go along, as CV and MB on my iPad 3 are both much better behaved than the older tables, to the point where I can reliably live catch on MB with only a tiny residual bounce.

 

[Chris6210]

Do many of you have access to the real versions for comparison?

I have an arcade nearby with some machines (actually googled it after playing this game) and they have "Ripleys Believe it or Not", it was great to really play it and also to be able to realise how much work has been put into the game to make it feel so real.

I initially thought, wow this feels like the game, but then realised it's the game that feels like this.

There were some visual differences on the table, a couple of the pics near the bumpers, (maybe it's a newer table and the game is older version?) and the rail that goes down behind the spinner on the right doesn't seem to go down into the hole in the game but the real table has a hole that the ball goes in. IDK maybe it has to be opened on the table, can anyone confirm?
Overall I thought the game looks great compared to the real thing, I have no graphical complaints at all.


Anyway, me and my buddy are gonna try and find more of these tables an more just because this game has re-invigorated our childhood love of pinball.

Other tables we found at this place were: Revenge from Mars, Playboy, Elvis, Monster Bash (which is great) and Indiana Jones was in another arcade a few yards down the road.

Anyone else got any tables near them that they play?
Pinformer.co.uk is a great site.

 

[pseudokings]

Recently got to play the real life version of TOM and MM for the first time in years. Overall both are very well recreated.

Theatre Of Magic: TOM in TPA is incredibly dead-drop center drain happy if you try to backhand the Trunk, much, much more so than the real table. Also, the center ramp seems to point a little toward the left in TPA at it's entry point, which is not the case on the real machine. The trunk seems a little small in TPA. You can backhand from a flipper hold the trapped ball in the real machine sometimes, but not in TPA.

Medieval Madness: TPA version is even closer to the real thing (than TOM), except for the return lane acceleration issues, and the Castle Gate dead-drop center drain issues, both of which I seem to remember reading that FS already plans to fix. It plays just a little too fast as well.

Once you get past the difference between a 250lbs machine with arcade buttons on the side, and a console controller (I'm sure the difference with a phone/tablet is even much more pronounced), FS really are doing a very impressive job.

I know the physics have been commented on by others, but as this is my 2 cents, and I don't want to read the whole thread before posting, here I go: That said, they need to adjust the physics to better represent the varying speed the ball travels at and all the factors that go into that. I know, no small feat, but at this point of the things they can adjust/affect, this is the biggest place where there is still room to make an even more realistic experience. The ball goes a bit too fast much of the time, and goes from slow to fast too quickly. I've been pretty pinball crazy since TPA came out (thank you FS for that), and I've played a lot of actual pinball in the last few months so I am quite certain of these comments about ball speed. I'd say it's most noticeable off of the slingshots (too many opposite side out lane drains) and on return ramps & lanes, both of which run between a little too fast/strong, and a good bit too fast/strong. The slingshots are most noticeable on TOTAN, TOM, and BOP; the return ramps & lanes on MM (as mentioned), and Ripley's (to a lesser extent).

I'm sure they are constantly tinkering to refine the physics, and I hope they continue to do so, not just on the new tables in development (hopefully for many years to come), but on the "old" ones too.

[As a note, I've played the real life machines of all but Black Hole from the first 8 tables released, but only TOM, and MM recently. I've only played the first 8 tables (via 360, and the PS3 demo) on TPA. I have been lucky enough to play a real life Monster Bash (from the upcoming Pack #3), and CFTBL (from the further off Pack #4) recently, so I'm really looking forward to comparing them when their respective packs are released.]

 

[Richard B]

From what I understand, physics are not easy to tweak, because changing one value will make changes all over the place, and fixing one thing may screw up something else. Bobby said the flipper interaction tweaks alone must be done slowly, on a per-table basis. Some of the issues are already being addressed - the bounciness off the flippers seems to get toned down more with each new release. I also hope they make retroactive fixes to earlier tables. It would be really lame to have 20 or 30 tables, with a third playing really well, and the rest all jacked up to one degree or another.
I agree they should play as close as possible to the real thing. Therefore, MM should be the best game in the collection, but right now it's second to worst (behind the totally screwed BH) due to the flipper gap.

 

[pseudokings]

From what I understand, physics are not easy to tweak, because changing one value will make changes all over the place, and fixing one thing may screw up something else. Bobby said the flipper interaction tweaks alone must be done slowly, on a per-table basis. Some of the issues are already being addressed - the bounciness off the flippers seems to get toned down more with each new release. I also hope they make retroactive fixes to earlier tables. It would be really lame to have 20 or 30 tables, with a third playing really well, and the rest all jacked up to one degree or another.
I agree they should play as close as possible to the real thing. Therefore, MM should be the best game in the collection, but right now it's second to worst (behind the totally screwed BH) due to the flipper gap.

Yeah, forgot the flipper gap in my previous post. It's there, but it is another thing they've already said they'll fix (I think), so I spaced it.

 

[Richard B]

Yeah, forgot the flipper gap in my previous post. It's there, but it is another thing they've already said they'll fix (I think), so I spaced it.

The number one Bobby Q and A question this time is how such bugs make it in the first place. I'd like to see their answer to that.

 

[Groni]

Well, for my taste the biggest "BUG" in TPA are the flippers. They are ok and precise on distance shots and you can place a precise shot anytime. But on small movements the coil simulation isn´t anywhere near a real machine.
On a real pinball machine you can hold 3 Balls on the flipper and tapping the flippers very quick, and the balls makes small movements on the flipper. With this method you can kinda sort the balls on the flipper.

Just take a look at this Video at 3:05 and you can see how a real flipper does that. I am hoping some Farsight Guys are seeing this and optimize the Flipper Physics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpkc2NooEUQ

Greetz

Groni

 

[Richard B]

Well, for my taste the biggest "BUG" in TPA are the flippers. They are ok and precise on distance shots and you can place a precise shot anytime. But on small movements the coil simulation isn´t anywhere near a real machine.
On a real pinball machine you can hold 3 Balls on the flipper and tapping the flippers very quick, and the balls makes small movements on the flipper. With this method you can kinda sort the balls on the flipper.

Just take a look at this Video at 3:05 and you can see how a real flipper does that. I am hoping some Farsight Guys are seeing this and optimize the Flipper Physics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpkc2NooEUQ

Greetz

Groni

CFTBL already allows for these small movements to transfer the ball from one flipper to another, though there are other problems, particularly the impossibility of pulling off live catches or drop stops. FS said they were working on this, but it wouldn't be implemented before September, and each table will have to be tweaked individually.