Time for new tournament rules?

[JPelter]

I'm not going to speak for anyone else but I absolutely can not hit that right ramp on Co1812 consistently enough to pull that strategy off.

 

[soundwave106]

I have to say I actually disagree on tee'd off. The doubler is definitely a major problem for tournaments on the table, but otherwise there are an astounding variety of different ways to put up a massive score on the table, way more than any other table I can think of offhand. Apart from the skins game it's an incredibly well balanced table. Probably the best modern gottlieb.

There are some ways to get big points, but Lightning Storm really is the easiest way to get them. If you get in a rhythm with the central shot, you can rack up some big scores with not too much effort.

The rest of the argument seems to be semantics. One obviously can't score as much without CC's 1M bonus bounty as with it, whether or not we call that narrow. Maybe you can make top ten on Space Shuttle without multiball and you'd call that competitive, where I wouldn't. We're agreeing on the principles, just arguing over the vocabulary.

To me, you can use both the spinners / bonus multiplier and multiball. Shooting the multiball ramp will work to a degree, however each shot is only 20K to 99K which is not terribly huge. The spinner can be built up to be almost as valuable, and the bonus multiplier can give some nice bonuses. So a score can be built up really quickly just by, well, shooting good in a fairly normal fashion.

Obviously this is video pinball where repetitive "grinding" is much easier, and as a top player you are probably real good at the repetitive grinding. So if grinding the multiball ramp is safer for you, that's great. Real tables tend to not be so easy to "grind", of course. Also most people aren't as good at that grinding thing as seen by the tournament scores, so by "competitive" you mean "top 3".

 

[vikingerik]

Yup, Lightning Storm is what I did to put up my 6.5B. Some points came from regular multiball, where I pushed the jackpot to 300M then collected six of them. But then 4B came from Lightning Storm. I can accurately keep two balls looping through the central shot without missing, to score 25M about every three seconds. Multiple billions can also come from Pitch N Putt, but that takes longer to set up and is more risky to blow by draining or just missing during the short timer.

Space Shuttle, I think the difference between the spinner and multiball is the time it takes to build up the spinner value. You're shooting a number of shots for the low 10k and 20k values before it escalates up to 70k. Multiball is at full value right away. Once the spinner is maxed, I think I agree that it is competitive for speed with multiball.

And to amend my previous post on Co1812: I didn't realize that the alternating ramp values and COFFIN letters aren't available during multiball. The fastest way to score is indeed to just drop out of multiball, then work all of the million, alternating ramp values, and jackpot letters simultaneously.

 

[vikingerik]

Oh, I hear you. There were times when the alignment of how I got continents was just perfect. I'd start Europe, immediately light and start South America, and then get NA, Africa, or Antarctica. I could swear one time I even had Asia in that mix, but my memory might be playing tricks as I don't know if you can stack 4.

The max is indeed four. Europe, South America, and Asia (also 2x scoring) can all stack into anything else. You can then add Australia or any multiball or Road Trip, but any of those blocks any more continents.

My favorite weird stack: Europe into Atlantis. You need 6 Ripley's letters lit. Start Europe, then any other continent, then finish the other one. You can start Atlantis while Europe is still running. For greatest justice, reset the Europe timer right before starting Atlantis by collecting 2x. I got 14M of Europe total this way once.

 

[shutyertrap]

The max is indeed four. Europe, South America, and Asia (also 2x scoring) can all stack into anything else. You can then add Australia or any multiball or Road Trip, but any of those blocks any more continents.

My favorite weird stack: Europe into Atlantis. You need 6 Ripley's letters lit. Start Europe, then any other continent, then finish the other one. You can start Atlantis while Europe is still running. For greatest justice, reset the Europe timer right before starting Atlantis by collecting 2x. I got 14M of Europe total this way once.

That's a lot of dominoes to set up. Interesting though.

 

[Zaphod77]

Teed Off is simply not suitable for tournament.

If anyone is having trouble abusing lightning storm, here's the big secret. Hold flipper to trap, but do NOT wait for the ball to settle. As soon as the ball starts rolling back to the right, lower the flipper. it will then stick every time instead of bouncing back out.

Timed tournaments (20 min per game) have a negative effect on strategy for many tables. It's often possible for a strategy that woudl outscore the one used for the 20 min tournament would be viable with a longer time limit.

Usually you want to enable reduced scoring for Gottlieb games.

I think tournaments would be better if they had extra balls removed, and broken railroads (t2 is the worst of them) removed.

 

[JPelter]

Lightning storm isn't the problem with tee'd off. It's probably required for the optimum path but that's similar to every other table. You absolutely will not get the best possible score only chaining lightning storms in a 20 minuter.

I honestly think Tee'd Off is one of the best tournament games in the batch we just had on PC. You'd need to derandomize or disable the mystery award, but that's all that would be required to make it completely acceptable.

 

[vikingerik]

Zaphod, yes that's what I did for Lightning Storm, let the ball do a partial rollback on the flipper each time then release and flip up the middle again. You can keep two balls in the same loop this way, if you're sharp at adjusting the timing so they don't collide. Flip each ball when the next one is just about at the elbow on the habitrail.

I agree with JPelter that Teed Off is actually quite an interesting game for the 20 minute time limit. Lightning Storm is the baseline strategy, but there's ways to beat it. Regular multiball can score faster, if you push the jackpot to something like 500M and can keep the balls in play for a couple dozen jackpots. A perfectly played Pitch & Putt would also outpace LS, at five minutes to max the bonus to 255M and one minute to play the round for 5B total. Anything Goes might be reachable in 10 minutes which is double Lightning Storm and would be superior if started soon enough. And of course there's Skins waiting to top it all off... although that's probably going to fall flat in TPA as anything worth doubling will fail the rollover detection.

Teed Off is so unbalanced it actually wraps back around again to balanced, it's fascinating.

 

[Zaphod77]

yeah it's kinda hard to play optimally. sure you can boost the jackpot and the pitch and putt up, but that in itself takes time, and halts progress towards lightning storm, which is the easy points.

BTW I actually DO know how to papa-tize this game. you have to remove the rubber stoppers from the ends of the habitrails, which stops you from being able to trap the ball. That and changing the option that sets pitch and putt to a flat 20 million, and now you have something that's suitable for a tournament.

 

[invitro]

BTW I actually DO know how to papa-tize this game. you have to remove the rubber stoppers from the ends of the habitrails, which stops you from being able to trap the ball. That and changing the option that sets pitch and putt to a flat 20 million, and now you have something that's suitable for a tournament.

Tee'd Off was more than suitable for the PC tourney as it is.

 

[invitro]

Space Shuttle, I think the difference between the spinner and multiball is the time it takes to build up the spinner value. You're shooting a number of shots for the low 10k and 20k values before it escalates up to 70k. Multiball is at full value right away. Once the spinner is maxed, I think I agree that it is competitive for speed with multiball.

I think the spinner values are 1k to 7k? (I'm in a paused game now or I'd read the rules.) At 7k, a shot to the spinner, with bonus X lanes and bumper hits added before coming back to a caught ball, seemed to give 80-100k. I didn't check too carefully or get that many data points though.

So I've been curious about something for literally over 25 years... should you time the ramp during multiball to get (say) >90k, or just hit it over and over? Actually I'm more curious about what you actually do, v.e..

The point about the time needed to get 7k/spin is well taken. The choice here may depend on skill of keeping the ball in play... I know (think?) I need the 7X and 7k EBs badly to have a chance.

And to amend my previous post on Co1812: I didn't realize that the alternating ramp values and COFFIN letters aren't available during multiball. The fastest way to score is indeed to just drop out of multiball, then work all of the million, alternating ramp values, and jackpot letters simultaneously.

So in a regular (non-time limited) game, do you go for the bonus 6X EB? Do you go for the left drop target bank ever, even if just one is up to get that countdown?

(I'm going a little crazy now trying to replicate what I got in the tourney on Co1812.)

 

[MontanaFrank]

Well there's an obvious cheater who just hacked the current mobile tournament.

And our friendly neighborhood Montana Frank impersonator is clearly infesting the PC tournament (it has somehow scored 24M on Haunted House, which is impossible in a 20-minute time limit).

Heck, I've been on Holiday. I didn't even know there was a PC tournament. I hope the person who played the tournament in my name scored close to the top of the leaderboard. When I play the ToTM, thanks S-Y-T for starting this, my score is almost the lowest.

To the one who is spoofing my score, thanks for being nice. Whomever you are, you know the ropes and hope if you run into me in the other parts of the cyber-world that you will continue being kind.

Can't wait till the next PC tournament......MontanaFrank

 

[Extork]

Do you sleepwalk MontanaFrank? Because there is always that possibility that you sleep-play tourneys.

 

[vikingerik]

I think the spinner values are 1k to 7k?

Yeah, 1k to 7k. A full shot gets about 10 spins for 10k to 70k which is what I meant.

So I've been curious about something for literally over 25 years... should you time the ramp during multiball to get (say) >90k, or just hit it over and over? Actually I'm more curious about what you actually do, v.e..

Some of both. In a regular game, I always try to catch both balls then time a shot, since that's how to maximize the primary metric of points/risk. But I'll take an untimed shot with a ball that I can't catch. In the tournament to maximize points/time, I would time it if I had a good chance with one caught ball, but I'd also take any available shot with an uncontrolled ball.

[Co1812] So in a regular (non-time limited) game, do you go for the bonus 6X EB? Do you go for the left drop target bank ever, even if just one is up to get that countdown?

Never. Never aim for anything except ramps, besides one door prize early when it usually gives an EB. Literally never, there are no other exceptions.

This is how the reward/risk calculus works. Suppose the ramp shots are 99% safe, weighted between 100% safe on a hit and your miss rate times your drain rate on a miss, and the drop targets are 95% safe. The drop target has 5x the risk of the ramp so would need 5x the reward. It doesn't have that.

This principle applies across all tables. It's easy to get tempted into 95% safe shots like say the super jackpot lane on Ripley's. But 5% risk is unplayably high compared to <1% risk of shooting the continent scoop or temple ramp. This is the difference between hour-long games and five-hour games, playing shots at 99% safety rather than 95%. It feels like a small difference but that's 5x longer ball and game times.

 

[invitro]

The drop target has 5x the risk of the ramp so would need 5x the reward. It doesn't have that.

This depends on the expected value of a ramp, which differs widely based on the number of ramps you can hit in a row . I think that the drop target has 5x the reward of the ramp for well over 99% of players.

I'm mentioning this only because sometimes I'm not sure whether you're talking about all players or just yourself...

 

[JPelter]

Another point is that a straight % game doesn't work in a 20 minute game on most tables since you can actually afford to lose a certain number of balls without losing anything except a few seconds off the clock. In a tournament or just playing without a time limiter I agree with what vikingerik said though, unless the game has infinite easily replenishable extra balls, like say medieval madness.

e: I mean VE was mainly talking about Co1812 and he's spot on there if you can just jam the ramps forever. Otherwise though it depends a lot on the table.

 

[Crazy Newt]

I only suggest having a time limit in order to keep from potentially having a marathon game that lasts several hours to be competitive. It should only be used as a last resort for a table that cannot be setup in a way to make the game competitive in a reasonable amount of time. I want to see every table potentially in a tournament, and a time limit of some length with certain machines might be the only way to do this while giving everyone a chance to compete.

If a player can routinely make the game last over an hour, it probably isn't configured properly for tournament play, and the difficulty needs to be adjusted somehow.

 

[vikingerik]

I'm mentioning this only because sometimes I'm not sure whether you're talking about all players or just yourself...

I'm talking about all players comparable to me in skill level and presence in contending for #1 positions on a leaderboard or tournament. The size of that set is not a concern to my arguments.

 

[MontanaFrank]

Do you sleepwalk MontanaFrank? Because there is always that possibility that you sleep-play tourneys.

No Extork, I do not sleep play pinball or sleepwalk. I take to many drugs at night to have that happen.

 

[Kratos3]

Last score is still the best idea, IMO.

I also said "other" because I think extra balls being disabled would make things a little more interesting. 3 balls. Timed(until tournament difficulty levels are implemented). Last score.